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J20056
Joined: Feb 1 2008
Posts: 221

Emote: Inter-Connecting FX Chains

J20056
November 16, 2019 - 04:56 pm

I realize I am ahead of the game as this functionality does not currently exist.

However, i was told by Eventide that it is something that they are working on and which will become available in the not too distant future. As a guitar player, I consider this to be what will make the H9000 a real competitor to the AxeFxIII (I relaize the H9000 is a much wider concept than the AxeFX) and what justified my choosing the H9000 instead of the AxeFx.

The tropic is therefore how woud FX Chains connect to each other in Emote in the future? I am pretty keen on it because it would avoid having to get to the VSig level for certain complex patches that involve more than 4 algos. I am a guitar player, so for me, having 4 different processors doing their own thing is not that useful, whereas having a matrix of 16 algos (I do need more than 4 at times but I don't really need 16)  that I can combine in a flexible way is awesome.

For the moment, I am "faking" this ability by using a patchbay in my rack so that each (stereo) FX Chain has a physical I/O.

 

The purpose of this message was just to try to get a sense from Eventide about how the functionality would work, because this may impact the way I design my FX Chains. ideally, I would get rid of the patchbay when the functionality is released and rewire in Emote accordingly, so if there is a current design as far as the inter-connectivity between the FX Chains, it would be useful to know ahead of time, if possible.

 

Regards

macgee
Joined: Sep 13 2012
Posts: 225
macgee
November 22, 2019 - 05:25 am

I know for sure many algos are only using a fragment of a single CORE, so why not have the ability to run more than one algo on a single core?
Each core is SUPER powerful - I can't believe how much I've been able to throw at a single Algo...

e.g. 8 x DLYSMP2, 4 x Easytaps x 2 x MODELAY and complex audio and control signal routing and switching along with calculations! And I'm still going!

Some H9k algos are simply 2 x MODELAY with a few controls

So each algo would need to have a CORE cost at each SR

Theoretically you could have loads of algos in a single matrix.

I'd also love feedback on CORE cpu usage per algo so I know the impact of my algo built in Vsig but I'm in a major minority here until more start building - holding thumbs
 

Regarding FX Chain routings, I'm personally hoping we would be able to assign, in a single matrix, CPUs to be available for that matrix.

The user can then add e.g 8 algos in that matrix and route within the FXC as they desire.
I think I recall part of the issue is that audio needs to flow through each CPU so 4 on one CPU and then audio goes through to the next CPU?

 

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As you re/arrange the algos in the matrix however, the hardware can reallocate the algos to CPUs and Cores as needed?

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J20056
Joined: Feb 1 2008
Posts: 221
J20056
November 22, 2019 - 06:57 am

Ideally, the user would be agnostic to the underlying CPUs and their routing. They would be a “canvas” where you can drop an algo (up to 16 which is a LOT) and wire it wherever you want. That would be the digital equivalent of the analog SwitchBlade with analog/hardware pedals and rack units connected to it. I guess an easier VSig although could be wasteful CPU-wise but easier to use.

Eventide Staff
jbamberg
Joined: Aug 22 2011
Posts: 225
jbamberg
November 22, 2019 - 09:46 am

J20056 wrote:

Ideally, the user would be agnostic to the underlying CPUs and their routing. They would be a “canvas” where you can drop an algo (up to 16 which is a LOT) and wire it wherever you want. That would be the digital equivalent of the analog SwitchBlade with analog/hardware pedals and rack units connected to it. I guess an easier VSig although could be wasteful CPU-wise but easier to use.

This is something we discussed in the early stages of the project, but there are some difficulties with making it work this way.  Connections between DSPs are not the same as connections within a DSP, and while we could hide that from the user, it might lead to some unexpected behavior.  Also, Eventide algorithms tend to combine multiple effects within a single algorithm already, and we felt that combining more than 4 of these together would perhaps not be as musically useful as combining simpler building blocks, so we focused on making Vsig easier to use.  IMHO, ideally we need something that's a level of granularity between Vsig and patching algorithms in an FX chain.

In the nearer term, we are planning to add the ability to connect between DSPs in the next release, so you'll be able to connect up to 16 effects without tying up analog IO and patchbay connections.  This is supported natively in the system, but we don't have a UI for it just yet.

macgee
Joined: Sep 13 2012
Posts: 225
macgee
November 22, 2019 - 09:56 am

is there anything preventing the running of multiple algos on a single core if the power is available?

 

jbamberg wrote:

This is something we discussed in the early stages of the project, but there are some difficulties with making it work this way.  Connections between DSPs are not the same as connections within a DSP, and while we could hide that from the user, it might lead to some unexpected behavior.  Also, Eventide algorithms tend to combine multiple effects within a single algorithm already, and we felt that combining more than 4 of these together would perhaps not be as musically useful as combining simpler building blocks, so we focused on making Vsig easier to use.  IMHO, ideally we need something that's a level of granularity between Vsig and patching algorithms in an FX chain.

Eventide Staff
jbamberg
Joined: Aug 22 2011
Posts: 225
jbamberg
November 22, 2019 - 10:01 am

macgee wrote:

is there anything preventing the running of multiple algos on a single core if the power is available?

Well, as we like to say, it's a simple matter of software.  One thing we've discussed is being able to run 2 algorithms per core if running at 44.1/48.  I think this is doable, although the synchronization can get tricky depending on how they are routed.  If the 2 algorithms were always paired in series, that would not be a problem.

macgee
Joined: Sep 13 2012
Posts: 225
macgee
November 22, 2019 - 10:33 am

jbamberg wrote:

Well, as we like to say, it's a simple matter of software.  One thing we've discussed is being able to run 2 algorithms per core if running at 44.1/48.  I think this is doable, although the synchronization can get tricky depending on how they are routed.  If the 2 algorithms were always paired in series, that would not be a problem.

The ability to run 8 algos in one FX chain would be amazing
Re Serial vs Parallel, that sounds fair, 2 on 1 core, run serial otherwise if parallel use another core

I imagine the challenge is how best to present this to the user
Thinking of my my old Digitech rack FX(which I still use), you would pick your config first then choose algos

Attached some images from PDF
 

 

 

Eventide Staff
jbamberg
Joined: Aug 22 2011
Posts: 225
jbamberg
November 22, 2019 - 11:36 am

macgee wrote:

The ability to run 8 algos in one FX chain would be amazing
Re Serial vs Parallel, that sounds fair, 2 on 1 core, run serial otherwise if parallel use another core

I imagine the challenge is how best to present this to the user
Thinking of my my old Digitech rack FX(which I still use), you would pick your config first then choose algos

Attached some images from PDF
 

Thanks, this is very interesting.  I still think that the very deep users who want this level of customization might be better served with a patching tool that's like Vsig (or maybe is Vsig) but has higher level modules (each of which can be an algorithm in itself).  For example, that would allow you to route control signals between algorithms, which the other approach can't do.

macgee
Joined: Sep 13 2012
Posts: 225
macgee
November 22, 2019 - 12:23 pm

jbamberg wrote:

Thanks, this is very interesting.  I still think that the very deep users who want this level of customization might be better served with a patching tool that's like Vsig (or maybe is Vsig) but has higher level modules (each of which can be an algorithm in itself).  For example, that would allow you to route control signals between algorithms, which the other approach can't do.

That approach sounds great to me, especially being able to route signal between algos
One challenge I have with building my own algos though is they get too big (long menus) and then navigating the UI gets cumbersome - sure this comes down to the builder and both algo and UI are each skills of their own
So an approach like that could make it easier to navigate

Loving Vsig and getting more comfortable. - it hasn't been the easiest to learn but with more community it could be a lot easier

J20056
Joined: Feb 1 2008
Posts: 221
J20056
February 25, 2020 - 02:20 pm

Is there an update on when FX chains could be interconnected in Emote instead of having to use a looped TosLink cable and use the ADAT IO? Beta would be fine. I'm trying to avoid using VSig and have functionsalty that's a bit cloer to the AxeFXIII editor, although the latter is guitar custromized.

moschops
Joined: Sep 5 2010
Posts: 23
moschops
April 14, 2020 - 06:59 pm

Sorry if I'm stating the obvious but you can just bring out the FX chain outputs to a mixer with 4 auxes and you can inter mingle them to your hearts content, probably more interesting sound as you can use analogue eq on the feedback paths, feed fx chains into themselves etc?

J20056
Joined: Feb 1 2008
Posts: 221
J20056
April 30, 2020 - 03:16 pm

I am using it in a guitar rack, and was going to take the rack on gigs, so a mixer isn't an option. My goal has been trying to replicate (in a somehow limited, but non-zero) the routing functionality of a Switchbalde or an Axe FX III. But it seems that short of using VSIg, whihc I do not want to do for building quick patches, it is still not really an easy thing to do in Emote given lack of connectivity of various FX Chains. Seems like having 4 great processors, but I really need only one. Dunno, I'm a bit frustrated at this point. I literally reconected my SwitchBlade as part of the rig, and was gonna use it to conenct the sets of analog I/O, but if I can't use a MIDI floorboard, then I'm really SOL. So getting frsutrating to say the least.

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joeydego
Joined: Jul 23 2014
Posts: 126
joeydego (My Eventide Gear)
May 01, 2020 - 09:41 am

J20056 wrote:

I am using it in a guitar rack, and was going to take the rack on gigs, so a mixer isn't an option. My goal has been trying to replicate (in a somehow limited, but non-zero) the routing functionality of a Switchbalde or an Axe FX III. But it seems that short of using VSIg, whihc I do not want to do for building quick patches, it is still not really an easy thing to do in Emote given lack of connectivity of various FX Chains. Seems like having 4 great processors, but I really need only one. Dunno, I'm a bit frustrated at this point. I literally reconected my SwitchBlade as part of the rig, and was gonna use it to conenct the sets of analog I/O, but if I can't use a MIDI floorboard, then I'm really SOL. So getting frsutrating to say the least.

Im a little confused why you coundnt use midi? What is the H9000 midi limitation? Couldnt you switch sessions via midi and store each fx patch as a session? 

J20056
Joined: Feb 1 2008
Posts: 221
J20056
May 01, 2020 - 11:02 am

Not with a H9000R sadly