You are here

BlackHole: some thoughts about mod.depth and tail length

Login to Post to Forums

You must be logged in to the Eventide website in order to post to our forums. If you do not have an account, you will need to create one. You may also reset your password.

12 posts / 0 new
Last post
Anatolyj_B
Joined: Nov 14 2013
Posts: 26

BlackHole: some thoughts about mod.depth and tail length

Anatolyj_B
October 03, 2016 - 09:11 am

Hi Eventide

I dont know, perhaps it will be more as request.
The fact is that if we increase mod.depth in blackhole, then significantly reduced the tail length, and this is problem. Because without modulation the tail is sounds too much linearly.

Take as example a good factory preset "H8000 Blackhole"
Even in max Feedback level (in "Infinite" zone), the tail will live aprox. less than just 1 minute. And this just pity.

(Freeze not to offer - it's a goot thing too, but a bit different)

I hope, all dicribed above its not a bug ? I.e. its properly behavior ?

tlongabaugh's picture
Eventide Staff
tlongabaugh
Joined: May 29 2014
Posts: 1008
tlongabaugh
October 03, 2016 - 12:08 pm

HI Anatolyj_B-

What you're describing is not a bug - for "Infinite" feedback to be achieved, Mod Depth and Mod Rate need to be set to 0. Now, increasing Mod Depth should not reduce the tail length itself, but rather, will affect the length that feedback will occur for.

Best,

Tom

Anatolyj_B
Joined: Nov 14 2013
Posts: 26
Anatolyj_B
October 03, 2016 - 07:58 pm

Tom, if its not a bug, ok good.

Well, when i speak about reverb tail length (in BlackHole case), i ofcourse mean Feedback knob - i.e. this is main thing which increase reverb tail length, right ?

And as i already understand, in Blackhole can not be such a circumstance, at which the reverb tail can be sounded more than 1 minute, IF ModDepth and ModRate set to 43 and 58 respectively.

(Or i am wrong ?)

tlongabaugh's picture
Eventide Staff
tlongabaugh
Joined: May 29 2014
Posts: 1008
tlongabaugh
October 04, 2016 - 11:21 am

Actually, the Gravity knob corrresponds to Decay time - though of course, other controls will affect the percieved length of this time. The Feedback knob controls the amount of feedback around the reverberation structure, so while it isn't technically controlling the tail length of the reverb itself, it does give the impression of doing so, yes.

You are (likely, I haven't tested) correct that the reverb tail cannot be sounded for more than 1 minute with Mod Depth and Mod Rate at 43 and 59.

Anatolyj_B
Joined: Nov 14 2013
Posts: 26
Anatolyj_B
October 04, 2016 - 12:31 pm

Thanks for reply. Ok. Unfortunately Gravity at maximum volume is decrease the width of the stereo space, which is only slightly better than the decrease in modulation. Well, ofcourse i understand that such request this is perhaps some intervention to foundation of blackhole appearance, But, after all it would be possible to add a some optional mode, which can enabled by desire, at which the tail can not will be killed via modulation. It would be beautiful long (even infinity) canvas. (with wide and diffuse ). 

Anatolyj_B
Joined: Nov 14 2013
Posts: 26
Anatolyj_B
April 17, 2018 - 07:37 pm

Guys, sorry, for why you change infinite algo in latest versions ? Just now found that Infinity does not infinity anymore even if Depth and Rate modulation on zero. And the tail fade out very noticeable during this setting.
I did not follow the versions, but did see list of changes, as i understand it is:

3.0.4
Fixes for several Pro Tools quick commands not working
Fixes issue where delay compensation would change when bypassing plugin in Pro Tools
Internal processing improvements
> Fix issue where engaging “Freeze” would cause squealing feedback after long periods of time

It seems it something related with this "fix" ?

tlongabaugh's picture
Eventide Staff
tlongabaugh
Joined: May 29 2014
Posts: 1008
tlongabaugh
April 19, 2018 - 05:16 pm

Anatolyj_B wrote:

Guys, sorry, for why you change infinite algo in latest versions ? Just now found that Infinity does not infinity anymore even if Depth and Rate modulation on zero. And the tail fade out very noticeable during this setting.
I did not follow the versions, but did see list of changes, as i understand it is:

3.0.4
Fixes for several Pro Tools quick commands not working
Fixes issue where delay compensation would change when bypassing plugin in Pro Tools
Internal processing improvements
> Fix issue where engaging “Freeze” would cause squealing feedback after long periods of time

It seems it something related with this "fix" ?

Hey-

We changed this because we found that in previous versions, Infinite feedback, with Depth and Rate at zero, would cause a squealing feedback after some time. This could happen as quickly as 5-10 seconds, if the filters were set a certain way, but regardless, it would always happen under around 30 seconds. 

We decided to fix this, but doing so does mean that the tail will lose a bit of energy over a very long period of time. Were you able to achieve settings where this squeal did not occur?

Anatolyj_B
Joined: Nov 14 2013
Posts: 26
Anatolyj_B
April 20, 2018 - 06:42 pm

TLongabaugh wrote:

Anatolyj_B wrote:

Guys, sorry, for why you change infinite algo in latest versions ? Just now found that Infinity does not infinity anymore even if Depth and Rate modulation on zero. And the tail fade out very noticeable during this setting.
I did not follow the versions, but did see list of changes, as i understand it is:

3.0.4
Fixes for several Pro Tools quick commands not working
Fixes issue where delay compensation would change when bypassing plugin in Pro Tools
Internal processing improvements
> Fix issue where engaging “Freeze” would cause squealing feedback after long periods of time

It seems it something related with this "fix" ?

Hey-

We changed this because we found that in previous versions, Infinite feedback, with Depth and Rate at zero, would cause a squealing feedback after some time. This could happen as quickly as 5-10 seconds, if the filters were set a certain way, but regardless, it would always happen under around 30 seconds. 

We decided to fix this, but doing so does mean that the tail will lose a bit of energy over a very long period of time. Were you able to achieve settings where this squeal did not occur?

I understand about which squealing you say (sometin like high frequency feedback), but frankly to say i thought it was quite interesting feature, rather than bug.
Tom but in any case, true infinity ability in Blackhole, at zero modulation, it's was one of the main thing. This point can not be softened or averaged, infinity or there is, or this is not infinity at all.
Moreover, i'm not sure that such modify of feedback will not cause some changes to overall results in many presets.
Please do not need kill the most strange and interesting (even if it's similar to squealing) details in device. This makes it an ordinary reverb.

And you right - i can't call in mind quickly that circumstance in which exactly zero modulation could not cause squealing (during a little modulation levels perhaps ?), but i good remember that infinity could was without any artifacts, and without fading.

As well, as i remember, such feedback "artefact" could been not only high frequency, but also appear in low side. Ie it seems it's was quite versatile (able of appearing in different ways) addition in feedback.

Bring back this all again, please. as a feature of Blackhole.

Or at least bring back true infinity during zero modulation, if you against squealing. If it's possible technically.

Or, can i get v243 Win installer ? (can't found where can download archive versions) Unfortunately the latest pre- v3 which i had just v226.

tlongabaugh's picture
Eventide Staff
tlongabaugh
Joined: May 29 2014
Posts: 1008
tlongabaugh
April 26, 2018 - 05:04 pm

Hi Anatolyj_B-

I understad that you found this feedback to be interesting, but it really was a bug. We had other complaints about this high frequency feedback and felt removing it was the right move. The tail energy will dissipate some over time, depending on settings of the EQ section. We will consider ways to mitigate this, but I can't say it will be updated.

If you email support@eventide.com referencing this post, we will provide you with an installer for the last version before this fix.

-Tom

Anatolyj_B
Joined: Nov 14 2013
Posts: 26
Anatolyj_B
April 26, 2018 - 06:00 pm

TLongabaugh wrote:

Hi Anatolyj_B-

I understad that you found this feedback to be interesting, but it really was a bug. We had other complaints about this high frequency feedback and felt removing it was the right move. The tail energy will dissipate some over time, depending on settings of the EQ section. We will consider ways to mitigate this, but I can't say it will be updated.

If you email support@eventide.com referencing this post, we will provide you with an installer for the last version before this fix.

-Tom

Ok Tom thank you for access to installer at least. Also what i wanted to ask - what meant "Internal processing" fix in v2.3.0 ?

2.3.0
> - Internal processing < changes and updates
- Fixed an issue where hotswitch “off” state would occasionally be lost upon session restore
- Fixed an issue where ribbon position would occasionally load incorrectly in Pro Tools
- Updated manual

tlongabaugh's picture
Eventide Staff
tlongabaugh
Joined: May 29 2014
Posts: 1008
tlongabaugh
April 27, 2018 - 11:33 am

Sure thing, I just saw the request and support should be sending it to you shortly.

Those changes refer to some refactoring of our shared audio buffering code that is used accross all plugins. It didn't affect the Blackhole algorithm itself, in any way.

-Tom

Anatolyj_B
Joined: Nov 14 2013
Posts: 26
Anatolyj_B
April 27, 2018 - 12:08 pm

TLongabaugh wrote:

Sure thing, I just saw the request and support should be sending it to you shortly.

Those changes refer to some refactoring of our shared audio buffering code that is used accross all plugins. It didn't affect the Blackhole algorithm itself, in any way.

-Tom

Ok, good.