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wvought
Joined: Sep 19 2017
Posts: 17

H9000R and Emote: Any possibility of MIDI Port Driver Conflicts on a PC?

wvought
November 19, 2020 - 08:54 am

1. I use a W10 PC, and I've had several disasters due to VSTs being unable to communicate with their intended hardware synths due to MIDI port driver conflicts.

For example, I was using a program called MIDI Quest (MQ) within Cubase to operate (make program & parameter changes) my Korg Kronos hardware synth. Then after a MQ update I was no longer able to do so because Cubase and MQ could not share the one available set of MIDI ports (1 in, 1 out) on the Kronos. I have two other hardware synths with which MQ cannot communicate...both for the same reason.

Similarly, I am unable to use the Roland Integra-7 VST editor in Cubase due to a driver conflict. Cubase takes over the port, and won't share it with the editor.

Is there any possibility of such conflicts when using the H9000R/Emote on a PC? If so, I guess I won't be buying the H9000R, and the H9000 is probably more than I care to spend.

2. If I buy an H9000R and my network (wifi or Ethernet) crashes, will I then be unable to use the H9000R until the network is restored? 

3. I would be interested to hear others' opinions of the pros and cons re buying an H9000R vs. an H9000.

Thank you.

John Baylies's picture
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John Baylies
Joined: Jun 12 2019
Posts: 96
John Baylies (My Eventide Gear)
November 19, 2020 - 02:32 pm

wvought wrote:

Is there any possibility of such conflicts when using the H9000R/Emote on a PC?

I don't think so, no. Your DAW communicates with the Emote VST via Emote's Functions, and the Emote VST communicates with the H9000 via the Local Area Network, so it shouldn't be an issue. I'm working on getting someone to test this with Cubase to be certain, and I'll let you know when that happens. BTW, it's also possible to use Emote as a stand-alone app, and send MIDI via USB directly from your DAW to the H9000R.

wvought wrote:

If I buy an H9000R and my network (wifi or Ethernet) crashes, will I then be unable to use the H9000R until the network is restored?

If your LAN loses internet connectivity, you'll still be able to connect to the H9000R with Emote, but if your router crashes, you will not be able to connect to the H9000R with Emote until the router reboots; however, the H9000R will flawlessly continue to process audio the whole time. Support for connecting to Emote via USB is in the works but I can't promise a timeline for that yet.

wvought wrote:

I would be interested to hear others' opinions of the pros and cons re buying an H9000R vs. an H9000.

Currently, the H9000 supports scenes, but the H9000R does not. Scenes support is coming to the H9000R but I can't promise a timeline for that yet.

wvought
Joined: Sep 19 2017
Posts: 17
wvought
November 19, 2020 - 03:00 pm

Thank you for your timely reply. Much appreciated.

I would be interested in reading your follow-up post re any conflicts on a PC using Emote in Cubase.

I'm seriously considering pulling the trigger, but am still in the process of reading the manuals and message boards.

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John Baylies
Joined: Jun 12 2019
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John Baylies (My Eventide Gear)
November 19, 2020 - 10:18 pm

wvought wrote:

I would be interested in reading your follow-up post re any conflicts on a PC using Emote in Cubase.

We have confirmed that the Emote VST's function automation works fine with Cubase 10 and 10.5 on Windows 10.

wvought
Joined: Sep 19 2017
Posts: 17
wvought
November 19, 2020 - 10:40 pm

I should have specified that I'm on Cubase 11, not 10 or 10.5. 

 

Anyway, thanks for that info, and I do plan to order an H9000R. 

wvought
Joined: Sep 19 2017
Posts: 17
wvought
November 20, 2020 - 08:21 pm

I bought an H9000R today. I'll report back after it arrives and I get it all set up.

It's a big expenditure for me, but I'm very happy to be along for the ride.

Kamurah
Joined: Sep 14 2020
Posts: 28
Kamurah
November 21, 2020 - 10:53 am

wvought wrote:

I should have specified that I'm on Cubase 11, not 10 or 10.5. 

 

Anyway, thanks for that info, and I do plan to order an H9000R. 

 

I am using Cubase 11 on W10 PC with Emote as VST (latest firmware / Emote software for H9000R)  It all works as advertised and I have had no issues so far.  Of note, however, I should mention that I am connected to the H9000R via Ethernet not wireless.  I am running a Dante system, with the Dante expansion card installed in the H9000R and I use it as my primary analog I/O as well as FX sends in Cubase.  

I cannot vouch for any other configuration...but I think you will enjoy the H9000R.

 

wvought
Joined: Sep 19 2017
Posts: 17
wvought
November 22, 2020 - 01:07 pm

To Kamurah: Thanks for chiming in. I also plan to connect via Ethernet. 

I would like to know what's involved with setting up a Dante system, particularly what hardware (if any) is necessary in addition to a Dante card. Can you or anyone else can point me in the right direction?

Kamurah
Joined: Sep 14 2020
Posts: 28
Kamurah
November 22, 2020 - 06:07 pm

wvought wrote:

To Kamurah: Thanks for chiming in. I also plan to connect via Ethernet. 

I would like to know what's involved with setting up a Dante system, particularly what hardware (if any) is necessary in addition to a Dante card. Can you or anyone else can point me in the right direction?

Hey...I am happy to give you an idea of how my system is set up...but with Dante there are no limits to the ways your system can be configured...so it will be up to you to decide what your needs are.

I run a Focusrite Rednet PCIe card in my PC...think of this as the traffic cop for all the Dante connections, into and out of your computer and allows for you to freely route 128 channels of audio.  While you can forego the PCIe card and run a Dante Virtual Soundcard using your built in Ethernet, the latency will be much higher than with the PCIe card.  Obviously you will need the Dante expansion card for the H9000...which will give you 32 channels within the H9000.  These can be configured any way you wish...as direct I/O via analog or digital...or as sends...and these configurations can be recalled.  The Dante card inside the H9000 adds those channels to the existing I/O...so using 32 channels of Dante does not affect your analog or digital I/O.  The H9000 is clocked via Dante.

I use a Focusrite REDNET AM2 for monitoring and headphones....but Audinate has released various 2 channel I/O options so you can use your own DAC, or route audio out of the H9000 via analog or digital.  I route additional headphone feeds to AES / EBU Audinate I/O connected to another headphone DAC.  I also feed audio into the system via AES / EBU from other digital gear (for me, a Fractal Audio AXE FX3...but you could use other outboard).  All clocking is handled by DANTE and is automatic, so once configured there is very little to adjust.

All the physical connections are via a Cisco Ethernet switch, which also provides PoE for the AM2.

The entire setup is configured by the Dante Controller software...which allows any signal to be routed anywhere...and setups can be saved and recalled.

The final piece for me was to purchase the Dante Virtual Soundcard (DVS).  This software allows WDM / system audio in Windows to be routed within the Dante network.  I use this for playback of YouTube or Spotify...and all that is required is for me to add an audio track in Cubase with the DVS channels assigned.  Since there are no WDM drivers for the REDNET PCIe card (only ASIO), this allows the system audio to function alongside ASIO audio.

It seems complicated but really is not once you wrap your head around the way Dante handles the routing of audio signals.  If you have specific questions please feel free to ask and I will try to answer.

 

Best of luck.

 

wvought
Joined: Sep 19 2017
Posts: 17
wvought
November 22, 2020 - 08:19 pm

Kamurah wrote:

wvought wrote:

To Kamurah: Thanks for chiming in. I also plan to connect via Ethernet. 

I would like to know what's involved with setting up a Dante system, particularly what hardware (if any) is necessary in addition to a Dante card. Can you or anyone else can point me in the right direction?

Hey...I am happy to give you an idea of how my system is set up...but with Dante there are no limits to the ways your system can be configured...so it will be up to you to decide what your needs are.

I run a Focusrite Rednet PCIe card in my PC...think of this as the traffic cop for all the Dante connections, into and out of your computer and allows for you to freely route 128 channels of audio.  While you can forego the PCIe card and run a Dante Virtual Soundcard using your built in Ethernet, the latency will be much higher than with the PCIe card.  Obviously you will need the Dante expansion card for the H9000...which will give you 32 channels within the H9000.  These can be configured any way you wish...as direct I/O via analog or digital...or as sends...and these configurations can be recalled.  The Dante card inside the H9000 adds those channels to the existing I/O...so using 32 channels of Dante does not affect your analog or digital I/O.  The H9000 is clocked via Dante.

I use a Focusrite REDNET AM2 for monitoring and headphones....but Audinate has released various 2 channel I/O options so you can use your own DAC, or route audio out of the H9000 via analog or digital.  I route additional headphone feeds to AES / EBU Audinate I/O connected to another headphone DAC.  I also feed audio into the system via AES / EBU from other digital gear (for me, a Fractal Audio AXE FX3...but you could use other outboard).  All clocking is handled by DANTE and is automatic, so once configured there is very little to adjust.

All the physical connections are via a Cisco Ethernet switch, which also provides PoE for the AM2.

The entire setup is configured by the Dante Controller software...which allows any signal to be routed anywhere...and setups can be saved and recalled.

The final piece for me was to purchase the Dante Virtual Soundcard (DVS).  This software allows WDM / system audio in Windows to be routed within the Dante network.  I use this for playback of YouTube or Spotify...and all that is required is for me to add an audio track in Cubase with the DVS channels assigned.  Since there are no WDM drivers for the REDNET PCIe card (only ASIO), this allows the system audio to function alongside ASIO audio.

It seems complicated but really is not once you wrap your head around the way Dante handles the routing of audio signals.  If you have specific questions please feel free to ask and I will try to answer.

 

Best of luck.

 

 

I understand much of what you wrote, but some of it is in the "it seems complicated" realm.

It also seems like overkill for me, both in terms of cost and functionality for my little one-man studio. Heck, the H9000R itself is overkill in some respects, but I couldn't resist coming along for the ride.

My unit arrived today, and I have cabling set up so it can send/receive 8 channels of analog audio. This sidesteps any clocking issues, and keeps things relatively simple for now.

However, I can't yet actually use the unit because I need to update the system, and Emote crashes when I try to do this. I downgraded Emote to 1.2.2, and it does see my H9000R, but so far the hardware update has been unsuccessful. I sent Patrick Flores an email re this problem about an hour ago. 

Like you, I have an AXE FX3. I have AXE I/O 3 set up to function as an external effects loop. I have my patchbay set up so I can patch from AXE Output 3 into an external effect (H9000 here we come), then from the H9000 back into AXE Input 3.  That should be an awesome setup for a gearhead like me!

I use an RME Fireface UFX (original model, not the more recent one), which has been just rock solid since day one. But I don't know if a Dante system would be able to interface with the UFX, due to the aforementioned clocking issues. My understanding is that one or the other would have to be the master. And again, if I were to set up my AXE FX3 to use AES/EBU, might those clocking issues once again need to be resolved?

Anyway, thanks for your detailed reply. Much appreciated.

Kamurah
Joined: Sep 14 2020
Posts: 28
Kamurah
November 23, 2020 - 09:37 am

I know what I wrote may seem complicated and overkill.  Really the main point is to think of Dante in a small studio as a digital patchbay instead of analog.  Since it seems you are already setup for analog routing, there may be little added value for you.  RME interfaces and drivers are great and I have a Babyface Pro I use for live performance and love.

Dante with RME:  If you were thinking of switching to Dante, you could still use the UFX...it just would not really make sense for it to be the main interface.  You could still route audio into and out of the device, utilize it's preamps and conversion, and with the RME software route everything for monitor mixes, etc.  The advantage Dante would have in this setup is everything stays digital, and that ultimately, the RME has a limited number of I/O .....AND....the UFX needs to be positioned relatively close to the computer if you are using it as the main interface.... the number of I/O channels on the RME may be plenty for your studio...so you would need to make that determination.

Location:  Dante allows you to position anything anywhere in the studio...and have just one cable connecting back into the switch with extreme cable lengths allowed.    My AXE FX is on the other side of the room near my guitars and one cheap CAT6 cable connects it to the Dante system.  The one cable is bi-directional so it can carry signals into and out of the AXE.  If you need to add more channels in the future....you just connect the device and the network will automatically add it to the digital patchbay (Dante).  From there, you just assign where the audio is supposed to be routed.

Clocking:  In Dante, you really do not have to manage clocking as closely as in a traditional studio.  I set up every device to receive clock from their Dante connection, and the network handles the rest.  (in the case of the UFX, you would just assign the UFX to receive clock from AES, and that is it).  It is automatic, and I really have not given it a thought after the first setup.  An advantage of doing it this way, since the Dante network decides where the clock is coming from and distributes it automatically, if I turn a device on or off...even if that device was assigned as the Master Clock, the network will re-assign the clock master and re-clock everything else automatically.  You also have the option of assigning clock manually, but I just let the network do it for me.  I have not had a single hiccup with clocking since I got it configured.

Not Dante:  AXE FX / Eventide - Will be interested in your thoughts running into and out of the two units.  I thought I would be constantly using the AXE FX for amp / cab sims, and the Eventide for modulation, delay, and reverb effects.   In practice I have found that while the H9000 works well on some things...it is not a given for every guitar sound.  More often than not, I record the AXE signal as is.  Just a preference thing, but again...interested in your thoughts.

wvought
Joined: Sep 19 2017
Posts: 17
wvought
November 23, 2020 - 07:16 pm

Kamurah wrote:

I know what I wrote may seem complicated and overkill.  Really the main point is to think of Dante in a small studio as a digital patchbay instead of analog.  Since it seems you are already setup for analog routing, there may be little added value for you.  RME interfaces and drivers are great and I have a Babyface Pro I use for live performance and love.

Dante with RME:  If you were thinking of switching to Dante, you could still use the UFX...it just would not really make sense for it to be the main interface.  You could still route audio into and out of the device, utilize it's preamps and conversion, and with the RME software route everything for monitor mixes, etc.  The advantage Dante would have in this setup is everything stays digital, and that ultimately, the RME has a limited number of I/O .....AND....the UFX needs to be positioned relatively close to the computer if you are using it as the main interface.... the number of I/O channels on the RME may be plenty for your studio...so you would need to make that determination.

Location:  Dante allows you to position anything anywhere in the studio...and have just one cable connecting back into the switch with extreme cable lengths allowed.    My AXE FX is on the other side of the room near my guitars and one cheap CAT6 cable connects it to the Dante system.  The one cable is bi-directional so it can carry signals into and out of the AXE.  If you need to add more channels in the future....you just connect the device and the network will automatically add it to the digital patchbay (Dante).  From there, you just assign where the audio is supposed to be routed.

Clocking:  In Dante, you really do not have to manage clocking as closely as in a traditional studio.  I set up every device to receive clock from their Dante connection, and the network handles the rest.  (in the case of the UFX, you would just assign the UFX to receive clock from AES, and that is it).  It is automatic, and I really have not given it a thought after the first setup.  An advantage of doing it this way, since the Dante network decides where the clock is coming from and distributes it automatically, if I turn a device on or off...even if that device was assigned as the Master Clock, the network will re-assign the clock master and re-clock everything else automatically.  You also have the option of assigning clock manually, but I just let the network do it for me.  I have not had a single hiccup with clocking since I got it configured.

Not Dante:  AXE FX / Eventide - Will be interested in your thoughts running into and out of the two units.  I thought I would be constantly using the AXE FX for amp / cab sims, and the Eventide for modulation, delay, and reverb effects.   In practice I have found that while the H9000 works well on some things...it is not a given for every guitar sound.  More often than not, I record the AXE signal as is.  Just a preference thing, but again...interested in your thoughts.

My H9000R is now updated and running, thanks to some timely help from Eventide, but I still need to test it in Cubase. I have the unit positioned in a closet at the back of the room (so I won't hear the fan), and I decided that it needed some company, so I spent much of the day moving my computer there too. I need a couple of adapters (for longer cable runs) that won't arrive for a few days, but then...no more computer noise in the room.

Can you give me a very ballpark estimate of what it would cost me to switch to Dante, or maybe what it cost you? I still don't know for sure what the actual components are, or I would try to come up with an estimate myself.

Right now, besides the UFX, I have a Focusrite Scarlett Octopre, which interfaces with the UFX via ADAT to give me 4 additional stereo channels of analog I/O. I will soon receive a second Octopre (those things have been hard to get of late) which will also connect to the UFX via ADAT, so I'll have an additional 4 stereo channels. With the UFX's 4 stereo channels I'll have 12 in all. 

My plan is to set up TotalMix to utilize the second Octopre as 4 stereo sends and returns for the H9K, one for each effects chain. So this leaves me 8 channels, meaning I can input up to 8 analog sound sources at one time. That's more than I EVER use. And any of their channels in TotalMix could be sent to the H9K.

Or I could patch directly from a synth into the H9K to use it as an insert effect rather than a send effect. (It's also possible to set up TotalMix to use external insert effects.) 

For audio already within Cubase (VST synths, samples), there's a way in Cubase to configure sends to external effects, and there are videos explaining this on YouTube. I actually used this feature a while back, but will need a refresher course.

It's actually mind-boggling. I started in 1980 with a 4-track reel-to-reel, which was state of the art for a home studio at that time. What a long strange trip it's been.

Re the H9K and guitar, I assume that only a small subset of the choices available to me in the H9K will be suitable for a specific project or of interest to me in particular. Anyway, most of what I do is actually synth-based. (In 2015 I slipped on ice and fractured my left wrist in 2 places. I had to lay off guitar for a long time, and it's been difficult coming back.) I typically send some MIDI to a synth, change it all around, and audition various patches until I find something I think I can work with. Then I add other parts, record/mix/master, and voila!

Thanks again for your input. 

John Baylies's picture
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John Baylies
Joined: Jun 12 2019
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John Baylies (My Eventide Gear)
November 24, 2020 - 12:42 am

The H9000 Dante Expansion Card is available here for $999: https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/H9000DanteExp--eventide-dante-ex...

You can either run it directly to your computer with DVS, which has noticeable latency, but only costs $29. https://www.audinate.com/products/software/dante-virtual-soundcard

Or you can run it to an interface such as the RME Digiface Dante, which has unnoticeable latency, but costs $1499. https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/DigifaceDAN--rme-digiface-dante

Either method will allow you to send 32 mono channels between your computer and the H9000R. You can also route FX Chains to each other.

Dante Controller's routing matrix looks like this:

 

Kamurah
Joined: Sep 14 2020
Posts: 28
Kamurah
November 24, 2020 - 09:47 am

wvought wrote:

 

My H9000R is now updated and running, thanks to some timely help from Eventide, but I still need to test it in Cubase. I have the unit positioned in a closet at the back of the room (so I won't hear the fan), and I decided that it needed some company, so I spent much of the day moving my computer there too. I need a couple of adapters (for longer cable runs) that won't arrive for a few days, but then...no more computer noise in the room.

Can you give me a very ballpark estimate of what it would cost me to switch to Dante, or maybe what it cost you? I still don't know for sure what the actual components are, or I would try to come up with an estimate myself.

Right now, besides the UFX, I have a Focusrite Scarlett Octopre, which interfaces with the UFX via ADAT to give me 4 additional stereo channels of analog I/O. I will soon receive a second Octopre (those things have been hard to get of late) which will also connect to the UFX via ADAT, so I'll have an additional 4 stereo channels. With the UFX's 4 stereo channels I'll have 12 in all. 

My plan is to set up TotalMix to utilize the second Octopre as 4 stereo sends and returns for the H9K, one for each effects chain. So this leaves me 8 channels, meaning I can input up to 8 analog sound sources at one time. That's more than I EVER use. And any of their channels in TotalMix could be sent to the H9K.

Or I could patch directly from a synth into the H9K to use it as an insert effect rather than a send effect. (It's also possible to set up TotalMix to use external insert effects.) 

For audio already within Cubase (VST synths, samples), there's a way in Cubase to configure sends to external effects, and there are videos explaining this on YouTube. I actually used this feature a while back, but will need a refresher course.

It's actually mind-boggling. I started in 1980 with a 4-track reel-to-reel, which was state of the art for a home studio at that time. What a long strange trip it's been.

Re the H9K and guitar, I assume that only a small subset of the choices available to me in the H9K will be suitable for a specific project or of interest to me in particular. Anyway, most of what I do is actually synth-based. (In 2015 I slipped on ice and fractured my left wrist in 2 places. I had to lay off guitar for a long time, and it's been difficult coming back.) I typically send some MIDI to a synth, change it all around, and audition various patches until I find something I think I can work with. Then I add other parts, record/mix/master, and voila!

Thanks again for your input. 

 

Now I am a little confused.  Why do you need the second Octopre?  Why not use the second ADAT I/O of the UFX as a send / return via Totalmix with the H9000 and save yourself the additional AD/DA conversion steps?  That would still give you 12 stereo I/O (4 on UFX, 4 on Octopre, and 8 (4 stereo) on the H9000) plus the 4 stereo ADAT sends.  

 

 

Kamurah
Joined: Sep 14 2020
Posts: 28
Kamurah
November 24, 2020 - 10:14 am

My Dante transition costs:

Focusrite Rednet PCIe card: 800 used off Reverb (I got lucky here...normally 1079 at Sweetwater new)  If you want the RME USB solution it will cost 1499 as John mentioned above.

Focusrite Rednet AM2 Monitor / Headphone box: 300 used off Reverb (439 at Sweetwater new)

H9000 Dante expansion: 999 at Sweetwater as John quoted above

2x Audinate AES / EBU Dante I/O:  140 each off Ebay (144 at Sweetwater new)

Cisco SG 350 10P Network switch: 200 off Ebay new direct from Cisco (449 at Sweetwater new)

For my second Headphone amp I am using an SMSL M3 DAC / AMP connected via Audinate AES:  84 from Apos audio

Total for setup: $2663 (3338 if all components purchased new)  Less than a new RME Thunderbolt UFX (2799) (if you don't count the cost of the H9000 lol), but more than the USB only version (2299).  I already have external mic pres / DI / compressors.

wvought
Joined: Sep 19 2017
Posts: 17
wvought
November 24, 2020 - 11:00 am

Thanks to both of you for those cost estimates. For now it's more than I care to spend, but maybe at some point.

Re the second Octppre and ADAT, I'll look into that, but it's probably I who am confused, not you. This is all new to me, and I tend to be a bit dense anyway when it come to I/O. 

Kamurah
Joined: Sep 14 2020
Posts: 28
Kamurah
November 24, 2020 - 01:41 pm

Dante obviously is not for everyone...and because it is a pretty small segment of the audio pie...I don't think it benefits from economy of scale for component pricing (Audinate kind of screws manufacturers on this IMO).  I just happened to find myself at a point where I was upgrading my studio and it offered the best ergonomics and most flexibility for what I wanted to achieve.  My studio is a small project space, but even so I hate having to crowd around an interface for headphones, or being forced to put all the rack gear right beside each other and the computer because of cabling...or run multiple cables all over the place to route signal and power...

(For me) Dante seemed like the best option to get non-homogenous gear integrated at the digital level with the best possible latency and with the greatest amount of expandability and flexibility for routing.  Look at the price of a RME MADI router / patchbay....3500 bucks.    I knew I wanted PCIe-level performance (RTL under 3.9ms @64 sample buffer / 48k....2ms RTL @64 sample / 96k), and although my motherboard supports TB3, it seemed like a gamble to go that route.  I have owned UA Apollo's in the past, and they have their own kinds of limitations (stereo insert on a mono channel....nope.  Put more than one Lex 480 on an AUX channel....nope.  Have more than two Aux channels with effects in the UA mixer software.....nope.  Still introduce latency for plugs....yep)  PCIe is a known and stable entity for audio regardless of platform (Mac / Win).

I look at Dante as investment in an audio SYSTEM.  From this point on, no matter what I add to or take away from the system....performance stays the same and cabling is universal and cheap. (20 meters of MADI optical cable is 89 dollars on Amazon.  ADAT is limited in the length you can use without some sort of repeater.  AES / SPDIF is only 2 channels. 13 bucks gets you 20 meters of CAT6 which is less delicate / more robust than MADI AND it carries power too.)

The H9000 serves as my main source of AD/ DA conversion and effects.  Considering how well it does both of those things (Symphony level conversion, and the best effects around), it really is a bargain.  I mean...Symphony 8x8 Dante is 4400....that is just conversion and no Eventide effects....add 4x Eclipse racks to get the same amount of DSP performance and there is quite a bit more expense.

Sounds like I am trying to justify my purchase decision...but I promise you I am not....what works for me may not work for you....and any way you slice it....Dante is NOT a cheap alternative.  I just want to show that for the right situation, Dante is a viable choice worth considering, and on a per-feature basis can be a competitive alternative.

 

wvought
Joined: Sep 19 2017
Posts: 17
wvought
November 24, 2020 - 02:29 pm

"What works for you" sounds really fantastic to me. Maybe someday.

Thanks again.