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rlj4214
Joined: Jan 17 2008
Posts: 14

Memory Card / Patches (failure???)

January 17, 2008 - 05:01 pm

I am totally new to this as will soon be apparent. Control your flames.  Yes I RTFM but I'm not finding an answer that I understand if it is there.

So if you look here

http://www.eventide.com/AudioDivision/Support/Harmonizers%20and%20Rack%20Products/Eclipse.aspx

You will find items that are of interest for this unit. Mine has the 3.1 OS. There is also, down toward that bottom of the page under "Other Downloads" some user presets that I assumed would be usable with this product since it was on the Eclipse page. 

 I merrily downloaded this and the OS update. 

First I used the serial port method, since I apparently do not know enough about MIDI to make it work, and updated the OS. Seemed to work fine. (Except for the Tech 21 MIDI Moose switch that I have, that will be in another post)

Then I tried to read the memory card with some of the .pgm files on it. Eclipse said there were "no programs". I figured OK, lets take another look at 3.1 and see what happens. 

Went back to 3.1 and it seems fine until I try to read the card.  Same thing. Sanity check, plug the card back into the reader on the computer. Yep there are the .pgm files just like they are supposed to be.

Formatted card in the Eclipse unit this time and reloaded the .pgm files that I have downloaded from the support page. Same thing. Says it is updating, try to read from the card and is says that there are no programs.

Just for sake of argument I tried to do the OS upgrade as was  stated on the support page. Nope, not happenin'. Act's like it is thinking about booting and just sits there.

The card seems to be fine, at least as far as reading, writing etc. on the reader I use on the computer. The Eclipse also formats it.

I must be doing the wrong thing, but in looking at the manual, I don't see different instructions. File name format discrepancies maybe?

It obviously at least sees the card since it flashes the yellow LED and says ?Updating Program Files? when you plug it in. Come to think of it, when you remove it also. (hummm)

Trying to copy the programs to the card now and it appears to be working, though at a snails pace. Like maybe a snail on qualludes. Jeeze can it really be THAT SLOW?

The files that downloaded the first time I tried this all had the .pgm suffix as do the ones I am trying to read.

I gotta be doing something wrong.

Help please.

IDeangelis
Joined: Jan 9 2008
Posts: 1470
January 18, 2008 - 03:17 am

 Eventide does not support loading presets on a card from external locations.

You do this at your own risk.

 To share patches:

insert a CFCard in your Eclipse and save to it the patches you want

to share.

Insert your CFCard into the reader or the CFC>PCMCIA converter.



When you read the CFCard on your pc, you will find a PRG folder which

contains patches named like this:

PROG0

PROG1

PROG2

PROG3 etc..........



You'll NOT find the names you gave to your patches on Eclipse.

Patches should be placed inside this folder!


Since ECLIPSE saves patches on the card starting from PATCH #500.

PROG0 is patch 500

PROG1 is patch 501

PROG2 is patch 502

PROG3 is patch 503 and so on....

on your card.




When downloading an Eclipse patch from the web, just move the

downloaded file into the open CFC reader folder, then take out the

card, insert it into Eclipse and load/save the patch.


rlj4214
Joined: Jan 17 2008
Posts: 14
January 18, 2008 - 10:39 am

 In trying to back up the settings to a card, it runs forever and stops. I get some of them but no all of them. It states that they are corrupt when I try to look at them. Not all of them mind you, just some of the last ones. 

Again it is incredibly slow. Maybe I just don't understand backing up the settings. Maybe I should not try to back up the settings. 

IDeangelis
Joined: Jan 9 2008
Posts: 1470
January 18, 2008 - 10:44 am

 What eactly are you trying to backup to the card?

Are these user presets from the internet?

rlj4214
Joined: Jan 17 2008
Posts: 14
January 18, 2008 - 01:18 pm

 Well just for the sake of learning I was trying to back up the system to the card. I tried the dump and had pretty much the same results as copy.

Like I said, I probably just don't understand enough about the unit yet. It did seem to fail though.

So if I do a dump, I can supposedly send a comlete system backup to the 2gig card i have correct?

Is that different from a copy? 

Working on it.  

IDeangelis
Joined: Jan 9 2008
Posts: 1470
January 18, 2008 - 02:09 pm

 Unfortunately I don't get specific answersto the questions. These nare what we need to help you, particularly if you are not expert yet.

Why would you backup the system?

There is no system back up in the Eclipse. What exactly are you doing? We need a full description. 

Also, your card may well not be compatible, or you may have some corrupted datas.

Until we get detailed responses!

best

rlj4214
Joined: Jan 17 2008
Posts: 14
January 18, 2008 - 06:17 pm

Hmm 

oooookkkkk. Well, lets try it this way.

I would back up the system because it is basically a computer. Computers break and fail, most of the time with little warning, and usually at a most inopportune time.  Your system is no different. I say you, assuming that you work for the Eventide Company.

For you to tell me that there is no system backup essentially would indicate a flaw in your support system and the necessary availability of redundancy in my opinion. Additionally that is an interesting statement since it states in your manual the following:

Page 51 last line in the paragraph addresses backup: We also recommend making a backup of your setups with the new software version, to either a memory card or via a sysex dump. (You have stated elsewhere that there is no Eventide provided utility for a sysex dump and that requires an after market sequencer)

Page 53 in the manual addresses the ?Dump? process and states the following in the Warning section: If you do a ?backup? in this way, especially to a computer, it would be a good idea to do it twice, to two separate files, and then to compare the size of the files. (this would indicate that you too are paranoid when saving settings and feel the need to use good computer science practices in order to create redundancy)

On the same page the next section addresses bulk copying programs and backup it states: The Bulk Copy function makes it easy, for example, to backup internal presets to a card. (to me internal would indicate settings from the factory, correct? Or maybe it also refers to the first 100 spaces of memory allocated to the user not sure.)

So the next question is loading, saving and deleting as necessary or as may be deemed prudent at any given time, programs, tweaks, adjustments, presets or how ever you would prefer to term them, either to the memory card or to the internal memory. These need to be available in a redundant manner which would require a backup of said items or the complete system.

If you are out on the road using this box and it fails, for whatever reason, since you state there is no provided system backup or means of reinstalling it with the factory presets, what exactly do you do? No doubt you will notice that redundancy for the most part is provided according to your web page and manual which indicate that you provide for reinstalls of the OS and backup via a Compact Flash Card. This of course assumes that some gorilla hasn't taken a sledge hammer to the unit or the flying monkeys have not shorted something out and released the smoke.

What about the problems relating to taking the programs that are on you web site under the Eclipse section and loading them. I so far have had no success with this. You did clarify items that I may have over looked in the manual such as the necessity of the program being in the PRG folder. I will try again and make sure that I address those items. If that is the case, then either I missed it or it was not stated.

I will also tell you that I have not been able to use the memory card to update the OS as you state I should be able to do on the support part of the web site. It runs forever, like hours, and does nothing.

If you are not getting the specific answers you want, perhaps you should consider rephrasing the question. I have no intent of arguing with you. There are enough problems elsewhere. I am working my way through this pretty much the same way I would expect anyone else that buys your system and is not familiar with it will. At least I assume that, but guess there is always the possibility that I'm not as smart as others and am incapable learning. I'm not trying to start an argument here, that is the furthermost thing from my mind. I am trying to be sure I know what the problem is I seem to be having and how to fix it. Consider it to be a learning curve that can benefit others as well as you and your company, assuming that you work for the manufacturer, by working through it and providing accurate documentation for future users etc..

I'm not really sure how else to define ?settings? that I have not already used. That seems to be part of the confusion on your end. But if there is no means of backup, then I really don't understand your confusion with that term since it can only refer to the programs that are available in one of the three sections of the memory the way you have it laid out or the actual OS itself.

First 100 user internal

100 to 499 Eventide stuff

500 to 999 memory card stuff.

I don't know how else to term it.

I am trying to back up the settings that exist on the machine as it is installed by your operating system in order to understand exactly and be comfortable with saving and restoring these settings as you have them initially configured in your system. It would appear that this can be done via a system reinstall but it would be necessary to set the entire system up again including the programs post install. Thus the desire for s system state backup. 

As far as sharing programs, settings, tweaks or how ever you would prefer to term them, it would be nice to work through this a few times BEFORE I would have to depend on it at a remote setting just to be sure how robust the process is and that I am doing the correct thing. I'm sure it is simple and that I just missed some small item.

I am going to step through the methods that you stated previously in message stamped (Fri, Jan 18 2008 2:17 AM) and see if the PRG folder is what I missed in order to confirm that either this card, a Sandisk 2.0GB SDCFJ is not working correctly, (in spite of the fact that the Eclipse seems to interfacing with it properly and it works on my computers) or that I am doing something that you never allowed for.

You state ? Eventide does not support loading presets on a card from external locations.? OK but they came from your web site under the support section for the Eclipse. I would think that would not be what you would consider an external location but I could be wrong. That was the point of putting them under the support page in the first place correct?

You also state in the same paragraph ?You do this at your own risk.? BINGO! Thus the desire to have the system state back up so I can recover if I screw up. That is just basic computer science 101.

I understand better after your message the way the programs are stored and the format as well as the fact that they apparently must be in a PRG folder. I did not do that before and that could well be part of the problem if not all of it. This may be stated in the manual somewhere and I just missed it. If that is the case I am sorry to have asked the question.

You state the following. ?When downloading an Eclipse patch from the web, just move the downloaded file into the open CFC reader folder, then take out the card, insert it into Eclipse and load/save the patch.? The problem would be that it is not seeing any of the programs. the statement you made earlier concerning the PRG may very well be the cause. I'll look.

You state ?Also, your card may well not be compatible, or you may have some corrupted datas.?

The card seems to work fine on the reader I have on both my desktop and laptop. The ?backup? that I have attempted seems to work fine for a good number of the files, but when it gets to the end of the list, it fails. And it is incredibly slow. Like a few hours worth. The Copy of program spaces 100 to 499 was what I was attempting in order to actually understand what was there. Since I started this document in response, hopefully with the answers you don't seem to have, I started a ?Copy? of the onboard programs 100 to 200, to the memory card that is in question. It has barely moved and as you can tell, this has taken a bit of time to put together. It can't possibly be this slow normally can it?

After this, I will take a look at using the PRG folder and loading a single file to see if I have success with that.

So I am trying my best to give you the answers you want. I have tried to explain what I think you need in order to guide this process. If not, please restate your questions and I will do my best to accommodate. What did I miss?

Thanks,  

rlj4214
Joined: Jan 17 2008
Posts: 14
January 18, 2008 - 08:34 pm

 When I look at it I see a PGM folder and the file names are in the format of name.pgm. 

In using the PGM folder I have been able to successfully (at least apparently) load the flash card and read the programs.

I am still having some trouble with some of the files that were on the web site that were user patches. Undre the "main" heading. From what I can tell it may be the numbering in the program itself.

Still working on it and thankfully getting closer.

 thanks, 

IDeangelis
Joined: Jan 9 2008
Posts: 1470
January 19, 2008 - 02:59 am

Backups:

effects processors are very different from computers. They have a much smaller operative system and do not need to install & run applications made by third parties.

They only use one type of files...presets that are native to them. So you won't find a system status backup in any unit because it's useless. You can backup the following:

-presets

-setups

Setups are system parameters under the LEVELS/SETUP keys) ans reflect the way you may have specifically set your unit (levels, MIDI, etc.).

These 2 areas are the only ones yo may need to backup and tit's possible using a card.

Talking about backups. Cards may fail or be lost or else. A real backup would require different copies on different cards.

Cards

the fact your card works on your pc doesn't mean it's compatible with any electronic device out there. Infact it surely isn't. All cards are different in term of speed and other technical aspects we won't get into here as there is no way you can tell a card from another, unfortunately.

The manual has a list of tested compatible cards. Big cards are not needed. A 16 or 32 MB card is all you ever need. Small cards may be hard to find these days. So try to stay low, around 256MB or 512MB. Such large capacities won't be used by Eclipse as its datas are very light.

The fact in one of your postings you stated you got a data corruption warning means the data you have copied to the card are corrupted. It may well be that those presets available on the web are are corrupted, some of them at least are. You should not use them.

So, the possibility that the card is incompatible (very high as a system installation using the card is extremely fast) and/or corrupted data are the causes of the problem. The presets may also be fine (not corrupted) but may result corrupted because of an incompatible card.

As stated before we (yes I work for Eventide and create the sounds on these machines) do not support third parties presets up/download. Some of these presets are available on the website simply as part of a sharing activity from our previous Yahoo group. I provided you the correct instruction, nevertheless, to upload them. Your card is failing as it's clearly incompatible.

Back to backups:

having stated that anything you have tried (copying presets/upgrading the system (please stay on the last public 3.1 OS version-no need to test 3.5 at the moment)/presets backup) fails because of the card, there is some knowledge you may take advantage of.

You do not need system backups because system doesn't fail as your Windows computer does. You have OS available and installable from cards and computers. You can backup presets and setups (these are YOUR datas). System doesn't need to be reinstalled.It's stable. The only problem may be a hardware malfunction and reinstalling the system is part of the diagnostic process...but that is a totally different story that doesn't belong to backup habits.

 For support reasons we often ask to describe what and how the user is doing. This is very importtnat because by getting the step-by-step description of what the user does, we can try to replicate a problem and understand if it's a unit bug, defect or a user error. That's the reason why you got specific questions. Please get in the habitb to narrow down to specific answers to such questions as this will speed things up dramatically- It's important.

 I suggest you try a different card. That will very likely solve your learning troubles.

best

IDeangelis
Joined: Jan 9 2008
Posts: 1470
January 21, 2008 - 05:16 am

>Thank you for your reply.

>However, your statements relating to the card being incompatible or having >anything wrong with it are incorrect as you will note from the post I made that >states that I was able to get the card to successfully work by using a PGM folder >to work with presets. Not a PRG folder as you stated earlier. Apparently the OS >searches for this format. I may have overlooked it but I do not see any mention of >using this specific folder anywhere in the manual nor do I see any mention >whatsoever of a PRG folder

>I have still had no success installing the OS either 3.1 or 3.5B  from a memory >card. It acts like it tries and sits there for hours. No indication that the card is being >accessed is shown past the initial read. How long should it take? I know that the >card works as shown above and your observation about size is logical. Some OS's >have problems accessing memory larger than they expect. I will use another card >and see if the problem with the upgrades persist. The upgrade with the serial cable >works fine and is reasonable as far as speed is concerned. I left the card sitting for >hours with no success.

Ronnie

your card is definitely not compatible.

CFC is a standard and Sandisk defined such standard. Nevertheless there will always be cards that work and don't work in any electronic product.

As an example I have a Canon EOS350D reflex on which I'm using some of the fastest cards Sandisk makes, the Extreme III. These cards, I have 2 of them (1GB a piece), don't work in Eclipse. The unit hangs forever.

 The evidence of incompatibility is that you can't copy or backup presets to it *from* the front panel and you can't install an OS from it, operation that usually takes about a minute.

The fact you have been able to create a folder in the card on your computer and copy downloaded presets to it that your Eclipse can read is not an evidence of full compatibility. If the Eclipse is not able to create itself such folder then you should not use that card. As you know Eventide doesn't support any procedure related to exchanging presets between units, other than sysex transfer. I sent you some info that is user created as a personal favor, including some warning about possible problems. That's for your knowledge.

>Your statements wishing to restrict me to only the 3.1 OS are essentially moot due >to the fact that it is posted on the web site. I mean if you want to see if it's broken >in a real world environment then this is it. If you want to protect it and tell yourself >that it's perfect and never fails, this is not the place to put it. You have stated that >your OS is stable and doesn't fail. (3.1 not the 3.5Beta and assuming that your >talking about the upgrades and not the core OS) I would suggest that nothing is >every 100% stable. That is unless you have somehow managed to avoid every >possibility that would cause failure. That can't be correct because you have >instructions in your manual that tell people what to do if the system freezes. This is >on page 52 in your index and page 54 if you are looking at page numbers in >Acrobat. Your reboot is a common practice in the computer world isn't it?

My suggestion to use and stay on the latest official OS (3.1) is motivated by the fact you are still in your early stage of learning the unit. There is nothing bad about this at all. Testing a beta system is adviced to expert users that know the unit well and don't need it for pro_use while testing, as a beta OS may and will have some problems. Youe learning experience is definitely more proficient on a good system.  I wouldn't install a beta system on anything I have bought last week. Why complicate life when learning is already a lot of work?

My comments on the system and its stability are different to the fact you wanted to backup your system status. It's not about stability here, as system may crash; it's about the need to reinstall a system because of major problems that corrupted it..like on computers. This doesn't apply here because you do not install third parties apps or drivers. There are no conflicts, etc.

So, you can backup presets = your sound settings stored to them.

You can backup SETUPS = your system settings

You can quicly reinstall a system from a working card, thing you won't need as 9 years of product life and thousands of units supported have proved.

Anything you need to put your unit back...up to where it was is simply a presets and a setups backup. 

>You stated that there was a list of compatible card in your manual. In looking at >Page 20 or 22 if you are looking at the page numbers in Acrobat it states the >following:

>?The Eclipse accepts CompactFlash cards of all memory capacities.?

>I do not see a list of ?compatible memory cards? in either the Acrobat or hard copy >of the manual. Maybe it's on the web site somewhere. I'll look. I have not seen it >referenced anywhere except in your statements with the exception of simply >specifying Compact Flash.

Yes it will accept all capacities BUT my suggestion to stay on a lower capacity card is because you can't save more than 500 presets to a card anyway. And including a hefty numbers of setups you may maybe store to it, a 16 MB card will hold all of these and still have free space. That's what we used when Eclipse came out.

Today CFCards have gotten to very high capacities and prices have dropped, but still worth to stay on the lowest capacity available and save some bucks.

The user manual has a list of approved CFC in its very last pages. I read it on the pdf document, V3.000, page 55. You should have this on the paper manual as well.

Going back to which card type works, you'll see that we advice Sandisk SDCFB series. That's the basic one, the standard card they sell.

As you can see here:

http://www.sandisk.com/Products/Catalog(1029)-SanDiskStandard_CompactFlash.aspx

they still make 256MB cards. These should work.

Other cards/brands will work but there is no way to test them all. So, a forum can help because people can tell what card are they using. 

As far as support request, it's necessary we have the following, when sometimes happens:

-OS version #

-used sample rate and clock

 -used I/O connections

- preset(s) name and number on which a problem occurs

 -a step-by-step description of what and how something is being done; this is helpful to try to recreate the problem here, following the same exact steps the user has done. If we can't replicate a problem, we can't fix it.

some other details that apply to some specific areas.

In general some of these aspects may or may not be relevant to a specific problem but it's good to know how something is being done anyway.

Very simply, try another card as it makes a lot of sense.