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Crysstalized
Joined: Jan 18 2008
Posts: 35

Analog BBD, Tape echo, and Vintage Digital Rack ideas

Crysstalized
January 22, 2008 - 04:29 pm
Note: I originally started writing this in regards to the vintage delay modulation thread, but felt in went too far off topic, and thought I would start a new thread. In that thread, IDeangelis gave the inspiration for the "Vintage Delay" here: " Vintage Delays, originally born on Eclipse, has been a great success to the point that we added it to H8000/H7600, even in 5.1 format. My original intention was to recreate the sound and artifacts of old rack *digital* delays (Korg-Roland-Lexicon-TC-Eventide-Bel) Even though they might have some sonic resemblance w/some analog delay, it's beyond the intention. That's why it's....digital!" I understand where you are coming from. I believe that it would be beneficial to your TF pedal users for an analog bucket brigade device type of sound in the TF as well (not just talking modulation, but in addition to). The reasons I would suggest this is that you are now working in a pedal format rather than rack as the rest of your (incredible!) products are. I believe that most people that will buy the TF are "pedal users" rather than rack users, who would probably spring for the Eclipse. Given that, most pedals users are excited it about older analog delays and tape units rather than older rack units, cool as they may be. The overwhelming responses at the Gear Page confirm this. Many people are trying to tweak some of the programs to sound like an analog unit. The Vintage Delay program is one of my favorite to use up until the point where the noise and artifacts make it unusable at extreme Xnob settings. I like the sound of it. Myself and many other TF pedal users would love to see a feature incorporated into the software. I have already emailed you guys my comments on the beta stuff as well as having been part of the discussions on other forums, so I apologize if you have heard this before :) . My idea would be to add it to the "Vintage Delay" xnob function by taking out the lowest bit rate (which is basically all distorted) and add an analog sound (which fits the "vintage delay" title as well) on there. You guys have already done some cool stuff to the filters with the beta revision, and if you could add a dirty analog (can't be just clean digital delay with filter/chorus) sound to it, many people would be very interested in it. In addition, the crazy vibrato and chorus stuff could be added to the "vintage delay" as jcshirke suggested. I loved the wow and flutter for the tape unit also, but the "hiss" isn't appealing at all and could be changed to a tape saturation/or preamp drive control for just the wet delay, to simulate the grungy nature of tape and analog delays. I find the tape a bit too clean, just like the Boss DD-20's analog/tape sounds. The Line 6 Echo Park does a good tape sound though, the best I've heard in a pedal, but there other sounds just can't compare to Eventide! I love my Timefactor so much and hopefully this comes across as excited investment into your products and not a harsh critic (at all!). I am so excited that you guys made it able to be updated via computer. Eventide is looking forward for sure. I guess I just wanted to suggest looking a little backwards as a great percentage of pedal players often do--these guys who are not usually your target market (until now). I'm not sure who in your company does what or reads what, but here are some threads of recent discussions. The Gear Page does not allow linking, so you will have to probably copy the links into a new browser window. I know at least one of your employees does, as they have been posting as "Eventide" to give us some updates, which I appreciate. Here is the manufacturer started thread: http://thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=333792 A wishlist thread that was started before the beta 2.0 but still valid: http://thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=283314 An older thread with a lot of recent comments about the revised software: http://thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=273466 Many thanks, Chris
jcshirke
Joined: Jan 14 2008
Posts: 139
jcshirke
January 22, 2008 - 06:37 pm
Hi Italo, +1 (+100 really!) to all of the above... Jeff
wes
Joined: Jan 24 2008
Posts: 19
wes
January 24, 2008 - 12:43 pm

 Man, now that you mention it, a drive Xnob for the Tape Echo would be incredible!

Mr. Blonde
Joined: Feb 24 2008
Posts: 1
Mr. Blonde
February 24, 2008 - 07:50 pm

This is my first post here on the Eventide forum.  I am the proud owner of a TimeFactor.  Previously I have owned a Line 6 DL4 and two Boss DD-20 pedals at the same time.  I still own a Maxon AD-900 and Maxon AD-999.  Like many vintage guitar enthusiasts I long for the grunginess of a good BBD delay unit.  Line 6 did a very nice job with their DL4 which was introduced many years ago.  I stepped up to having two Boss DD-20 units to create two delays at the same time and enjoyed the Boss ease of use.  I am hoping Eventide can take the next step, create an easy to use digital unit (DONE!) that has great vintage delay sounds within (PENDINGSad).  The Eventide unit is just too clean and sterile in the analog simulations.  The delays need to have that dirty ambient sound that many people are searching for.  This year at NAMM many more pedal makers were coming out with units which have a BBD.  This must mean the market has a huge desire for BBD units which have a grungy dirty character to the sound.  The huge advantage the Eventide unit has over all of them is the user can control how much or how little of the grunge they want.  Eventide can trumpo them all if we can just dial it in on the unit.  Thanks Eventide!    

thetwlo
Joined: Jan 22 2008
Posts: 9
thetwlo
January 30, 2008 - 10:11 pm
...and of course an Oil Can delay type would be great as well, like the Tel-Rey... I kinda assumed(wrongly) that the "VintageDelay" was a BBD model when I bought it. as much as I love the early dig-delays, i guess i thought there would be a bbd delay model. Also, it would be great to control the # of and spacing of the "tape heads" on the TapeEcho. BTW: I think the update was a drastic improvement, hopefully it continues! but I guess I expected something better than the (now getting old) Line 6 delays, and this is just different. Which is fine but..ya know... was expecting more/too much?
Giannis
Joined: Jan 31 2008
Posts: 4
Giannis
January 31, 2008 - 08:18 pm

+1000 !!!

Crysstalized you are so right ! That is exactly what I believe for the TF. I didn't bought it for that reason : There's no good analog sound. It's all too digital !

 I use an analog delay and the Boss DD-20 because I need at least some presets. But the DD-20 has a very good analog sound ! And also it has the most important knob for a delay : a TONE !

When I learned about the new eventide delay stompbox, I thought that it would be what exactly I was looking for ! But I didn't manage to make a analog-like sound. The vintage mode makes the repeats too treble... 

I would be too grateful to Eventide, if they did something about it. A tone knob and a as-true-as-it-can-be BBD analog sound ! 

18watt
Joined: Jan 22 2008
Posts: 31
18watt
January 31, 2008 - 09:59 pm
I sort of like that the TimeFactor isn't trying to be an analog delay. I love the way it sounds.
Roobin
Joined: Jan 17 2008
Posts: 70
Roobin
February 01, 2008 - 01:56 pm

 Giannis, in reference to the treble problem, have you tried the 'Filter' knob? Or are you referring to it being too trebly even after playing with the 'Filter' knob?

Giannis
Joined: Jan 31 2008
Posts: 4
Giannis
February 01, 2008 - 03:43 pm

I played with the filter knob... I was searching the box for 1,5 hour trying all the possible combinations. I was too happy that there were all those functions, but in the end I didn't manage to produce a good analog-like sound. All the sounds were too digital to my ears ! And I am sure that this can be done, because boss has done it. Boss has a very fair analog sound in the DD-20. 

 If there was a way I had this sound to the eventide, this box would be the perfect delay for me !

 Maybe if the vintage-delay preset, would not be too fussy when increasing the X-knob ! I can't really thing of any use for this fuss !

I know I ask too much, but the delay is the main unit for my music...

 thank you

jcshirke
Joined: Jan 14 2008
Posts: 139
jcshirke
February 02, 2008 - 12:50 am
18watt:
I sort of like that the TimeFactor isn't trying to be an analog delay. I love the way it sounds.
Then why does it have a tape delay? If it's going to try to do tape, why not try to do analog also? I suppose that's my point. I'd gladly sacrifice the looper for a good analog-style algorithm. Until then, I guess my solution is to hang onto my real analog delays. I'm not selling my tape delay either. Jeff
arcadesonfire
Joined: Feb 13 2008
Posts: 36
arcadesonfire
February 13, 2008 - 03:55 pm

I totally agree with the idea of changing the Tape Delay hiss control. I'll never use the hiss, but getting the tape to be more smeared or lo-fi would be excellent.

 Also, I had assumed that the nasty distortion on the vintage delay was a mistake. I emailed Eventide about it and they thanked me for pointing it out. I built a BYOC delay a while back and i just love how it's delays change as they feedback and back and back. They get lower and lower fi as they go. I wish the vintage delay on the TimeFactor would do that as you turn up the x-knob.

For now though, i'm in love with the tape echo and the special effects you can coax out of the digital delay with the filter changes. 

jcshirke
Joined: Jan 14 2008
Posts: 139
jcshirke
February 13, 2008 - 04:55 pm
arcadesonfire:
?Also, I had assumed that the nasty distortion on the vintage delay was a mistake. I emailed Eventide about it and they thanked me for pointing it out.
It is deliberate, isn't it?? The lower the bit rate setting (x knob), the more noise you have. A lot of older, "vintage" digital delays are noisy--like my Korg SDD-3000, for instance. The noise makes it more authentic, although I definitely don't overdo it. ;) I'm still keeping a couple analog delays, and I'm not going to sell my Fulltone TTE either. But the TimeFactor is a fantastic pedal. I'd love for it to have even more features, but it's awfully good as is. Jeff
arcadesonfire
Joined: Feb 13 2008
Posts: 36
arcadesonfire
February 13, 2008 - 05:21 pm

jcshirke:

It is deliberate, isn't it?? The lower the bit rate setting (x knob), the more noise you have. A lot of older, "vintage" digital delays are noisy--like my Korg SDD-3000, for instance.
 

 I don't have any experience with old digital delays except for pedals, which only have the basic parameters, so i suppose it could be deliberate. But it makes the delay unusable below 15 bits.. i mean, i've never heard a recording with a delay that sounds so nastily distorted; there's nothing musical about it. I suppose it could be a special effect, but only if it's set to an extreme setting, so almost a half of the x-knob's range makes a pointless sound (imho), and i don't care for that.

 I love my build your own clone DD-80 which is a very basic 'analog voiced' digital delay, so i assumed that what gave it its sound was that it was cheap and therefore had a low bitrate. So i was hoping a low bitrate on the timefactor would give me the DD-80s sound with a tap tempo!! Therefore, i'm hoping enough others will petition Eventide to change the vintage delay and get rid of that nasty distortion in favor of musical low fidelity.

Crysstalized
Joined: Jan 18 2008
Posts: 35
Crysstalized
February 13, 2008 - 07:01 pm
arcadesonfire:

? Therefore, i'm hoping enough others will petition Eventide to change the vintage delay and get rid of that nasty distortion in musically low fidelity.

I have been watching the discussion about this topic, and have already known from the Gear Page that I am not alone on this, and it is confirmed here as well. I fear that if the tape delay is not grungified (making up words here!), and that a reasonable analog delay sound is not done, that I might have to add an analog delay to my board. How am I going to explain that to my Timefactor! She is going to be upset with another mistress on my board! :)

I have played many "analog voiced/tape voiced" delays that only sound like filtered clean delay. The Timefactor is such a great pedal, that if it had just a good analog sound --in addition to-- all of the great pristine digital sounds (which I love also), it would be so satisfying. More pedal players would purchase it as well.

-Chris
arcadesonfire
Joined: Feb 13 2008
Posts: 36
arcadesonfire
February 14, 2008 - 11:42 am
Crysstalized:

The Timefactor is such a great pedal, that if it had just a good analog sound --in addition to-- all of the great pristine digital sounds (which I love also), it would be so satisfying. More pedal players would purchase it as well.

-Chris

 

 Agreed... Harmony Central is my main music forum, and people on the Effects forum are always asking for the delay pedal that does it all. But, none of them do it all, so a lot of people are using a Nova Delay plus an analog or lo-fi digital delay together, or their going for the stereo memory man +hazarai along with some other pedal for ultra clean delays or another pedal that has a bpm display... any two of those pedals could easily cost as much as or more than one TimeFactor, so if Eventide were to have a really nice smeared, analogish delay sound on here, their delay really would do it all and they could have %100 of the market share!! (maybe i'm exaggerating that number a little)

As much as i'd like to see the vintage delay's x-knob go from the current vintage delay sound to an analog or a lo-fi digital delay pedal sound, Eventide has done a great job, and i wonder how realistic it is for them to overhaul an effect like that on a software upgrade... hmm...

thetwlo
Joined: Jan 22 2008
Posts: 9
thetwlo
February 24, 2008 - 01:04 am
also, I'm a bit confused why shorter delays aren't better implemented here, like Flangers and Chorus, as most/many older dig delays did those as as the y are delay fx. I would love a thru-zero flanger and nice chorus fx, but some of those that are delay fx have been delegated to the modfactor, why? these are delay effects, and i don't think I want a modfactor--rather have two timefactors as some of the effects initially announced that I really wanted were removed from it. Things like Flanger and Chorus are the essentials of a good delay.
jcshirke
Joined: Jan 14 2008
Posts: 139
jcshirke
February 24, 2008 - 11:47 pm
I think you answered your own question--chorus, flange, etc. are in the ModFactor--where they belong. Shrug.
teddybutter
Joined: Jan 18 2008
Posts: 22
teddybutter
February 27, 2008 - 02:10 pm
uh... just like on any mod delay....

you can get a chorus sound by putting the mod delay around 25ms

you can get a flanging sound the same way with a delay time under 10ms, the more feedback, the more flagey

you can get a vibrato sound by doing one of the above with no feedback and the mix control all the way wet...

Teddy

arcadesonfire
Joined: Feb 13 2008
Posts: 36
arcadesonfire
February 28, 2008 - 09:45 am

I played around with this last night going for flange sounds, and my gosh, there are a variety of excellent flange effects you can get with the timefactor, especially with the mod delay setting.

 There are so many parameters to manipulate! I was blown away that of all the effects processors and such i've owned and played through (though i've never played through the fox rox tzf mind you), the best through zero sounding flanger i've played through is right here on the TimeFactor! I had to spend a bit of time finding the right amount of delay time (it was around 25 ms) and feedback, but then even with that stuff set, you can use the mod depth, filter, and mix to go through all different kinds of delay sounds. Plus, with two delays with independent feedback controls, there's even more sounds you can get.

 My best through-zero sounds came with the x-knob set to the first LFO shape so really got a strong sharp peak. Then (this is my favorite part) i could manipulate the duration of the peak by playing with the effect times. If they were the same, i'd get a short peak, but as they got more and more ms apart, the peaks got longer and longer! Plus, i could use the expression pedal to change the flange speed!

I've got to get some clips of this up! 

arcadesonfire
Joined: Feb 13 2008
Posts: 36
arcadesonfire
February 28, 2008 - 09:54 am

 So yesterday i played around with my BYOC digital delay, and when i set it to it's longer delay times (i believe it goes to 600 ms), it sorta gets the kind of distortion I think Eventide was going for with the x-knob on the vintage delay. But, at its worst, my BYOC delay gets as grungy as the Timefactor set to 12 bits. Furthermore, to me, it sounds like the Timefactor's grunginess is noisegated or something, so it's either full on or full off, and it switches in an ugly way. The BYOC's grunginess is dynamic, matching my playing.

The biggest issue though is that the BYOC's grunginess is worth it because of the beautiful tonal degradation from repeat to repeat. The Timefactor's digital delay doesn't approach that kind of lo-fi beauty. You can use the filter to make the delays thinner, but i want them to get more and more lo-fi, more and more smeared with more and more artifacts with each repeat!

I played with the Electro-Harmonix SMMH this weekend. When set to high feedback or looping and noodling around, its lo-fi artifacts are downright inspiring. The pedal didn't do anything else i would be interested in though, and it's clearly inferior to the Timefactor (imho), but i do wish the Timefactor's vintage delay was more like the SMMH.

Giannis
Joined: Jan 31 2008
Posts: 4
Giannis
February 28, 2008 - 09:57 am

 Is there any official asnwer to this subject we are all here discussing (about the BBD analog-type mode) ?

 Will Eventide make an update for the vintage delay ?

I need in the very near future a delay and the Eventide with a better analog sound would be the best for me...If not I think I will go for a Nova delay...

jb1984
Joined: Apr 5 2008
Posts: 4
jb1984
April 08, 2008 - 02:50 pm
I wholeheartedly agree. It's a shame that one sound off of a $250 box can't be had by a $400 box from a superior company. I love my timefactor, but I wish I just could have one setting that's not so sterile. There's something magical about a delay that repeats and as it fades out, it gets progressively grungier. I haven't found a way to get this out of the TF yet. Eventide, please help!
IDeangelis
Joined: Jan 9 2008
Posts: 1470
IDeangelis
April 08, 2008 - 03:55 pm

 Hi Jb

the point has nothing to do with the cost of the product. A Boss SE-50 does gazillions of FX compared to a Lexicon PCM81 and costs what? 6 or 7 times less, right? How about the sound quality of the things both do, though?

The structures of algorithms and the used code is different from a company to another.

One may have certain results with a much heavier code that needs more expensive hardware to run and provides better sounding results. Another may fit more stuff with lighter code and sound ok.

Some stuff may just not fit in the product. Some options may not be possible because, if implemented, would take away other cool things other people love.  I strongly believe any product, particularly in the lower price range, can't possibly make everybody perfectly happy with all it offers. If TF had to make happy all the people with all their suggestions and desires....we would probably end up with a different product, a different price...who knows.

On the other hand the other product you mention doesn't offer things available in the TF. So as you see it's an area where some corners may be cut in favor of other needs. We surely listen to our customer and try our best but it shouldn't be expected that a single product could possibly be the encyclopedia of delays, even though we try our best. There are limitations we all need to live with.

We do have grunge delays in the big boxes...but that's a different thing.

best

enocaster
Joined: Apr 8 2008
Posts: 1
enocaster
April 08, 2008 - 03:59 pm
YES! A big +1 to the suggestions in this thread. The TF major shortcoming is it's inability to get grungy. Eventide, Please, please change the "Hiss" control to some sort of Drive or Tape Saturation control. Also the repeats on the Vintage Delay need to progressively deteriorate so they gradually blur together. What makes lo-fi digital delays great is completely lost on the Vintage setting. Also, a "BBD" mode would be great instead of, say, the lowest bit rate settings.
jb1984
Joined: Apr 5 2008
Posts: 4
jb1984
April 08, 2008 - 04:03 pm
Thanks for your quick response.

First - I didn't intend my post to be so much a calling out of Eventide as just an expression of slight disappointment in regards to one function of a product that I otherwise love.

I understand that no product can be a "be-all-end-all", but there are some functions (well, just one, really) that I feel should be more useable. One of the commonly voiced opinions among TF owners on this forum and others is that the vintage delay is great - but some just wish it to be "more" vintage-y. I don't know if this is possible with the algorithm that is being used in the TF, but if it is, it'd make this pedal a perfect 10.

I can only speak for myself here - but I would say with complete conviction that there's not one thing I would miss about the vintage delay setting on the TF if it were to be revoiced into a more analog-style sound. Whether this is possible or not is another question entirely, but I'm sure that if there is a way and the consensus is as in favor of this as it seems to be, Eventide will do what they can to make it happen.
arcadesonfire
Joined: Feb 13 2008
Posts: 36
arcadesonfire
April 08, 2008 - 04:23 pm

I had just posted in another thread that i would love to hear from Eventide whether or not i should hold my breath for a "grungy" delay setting, and it sounds like IDeangelis may have just given an answer...

 I take it what IDeangelis is saying is that there isn't enough room in the Timefactor for a delay that would do the grungy thing with the same level of quality as it does all its other delays, and Eventide wouldn't want to put an inferior effect on a pedal on which all the other delays do what they do as best as possible. So, while it is possible with the amount of code they have left over on the tape delay to make a hissy effect for the x-knob to control, but there wouldn't be enough code room for a really awesome saturation.

While i myself would prefer even a half-assed tape saturation effect to the hiss effect (so that i don't have to put another pedal in my signal chain), then there might be someone who complains that the Tape Delay is no longer truly a "modeler" as it once was, and that they used the hiss to really recreate an old delay. However, that type of mentality seems more fit to a studio effect (someone is much more likely to use that his on a recording than on stage), and while Eventide is huge in studio effects, these pedals are (if i'm not mistaken) geared towards live performance, and on stage, i think a half-assed grunginess factor is more useful than a perfectly modeled tape hiss.

 But again, i don't know about how much coding room is needed for any of this, so i might not really understand the situation.

IDeangelis
Joined: Jan 9 2008
Posts: 1470
IDeangelis
April 08, 2008 - 04:41 pm

 Arcade

we can't really discuss about coding and other complex things here, it's simply out of context. We do not do modeling! That's a very different thing. We make things sound as good or as real as possible with different coding approaches. There are limitations, I would rather say *differences* though between analog and digital technologies. Still I haven't heard a real analog delay from digital technology but lo-fi stuff done w/digital technology is by far better than analog. So, I don't know if we could do what you are asking for in this case, nor I have stated anything you imply in your comment.

My point is about technical aspects that are by far more complex than naming things we would love to have in a single product. Sure enough we need way more processing resources for the fx our products are able to do than many other companies, coming from studio quality gear. That's one of the reasons you all get the sound quality you all seem to appreciate in the Eventide brand and legacy. I'm sure our folks are looking into these suggestions but, as an example, I wasn't sad the day I bought my Pcm80 because it wasn't able to sound like an EMT Plate HUGE box verb! It does come close up to a point...but it's not the same. I learned about many other things in the product that are great!

In a perfect world any box would do anything. In our less than perfect world a box does well what it can do, or does a lot of things...with lesser results. It's a matter of choices.

jb1984
Joined: Apr 5 2008
Posts: 4
jb1984
April 08, 2008 - 04:54 pm
Your analogy of wanting the EMT plate verb out of the PCM80 is great - but in this case, I think the actual situation is a little bit different. For instance, I would *love* to have the "Crystal Echoes" patch on the TF - but I know it's beyond the scope of it's processing power to do this (or maybe...?)

In any case, I don't think anyone is requesting any additional sounds or functionalities, I think it's more that the vintage delay just doesn't sound very vintage. I've read on another thread that it's a digital approximation of a vintage delay, and that's why it sounds so fizzy and spattery when the bit rate goes lower, so I understand that, but -if it were possible- why not shoot for a sound that would be more useful?

It's true about the pedal vs. rack thing - when you've got a rack processor for each type of effect - and they all do ONE thing well, it's different. Just load up x processor for that analog delay sound, and let y processor do the digital thing. But in a pedal form, the options to have one pedal for one sound get cramped by space limitations and practicality. My hope was that the TF could be the ONE delay I have on my board. I don't need it to be a Memory Man, an Ibanez delay, a Boss Digital Delay and an actual tape echo all at once - I just wish it could do something *like* them - and the only thing I feel is lacking is the analog delay sound.

Again, I appreciate all the feedback about this.
arcadesonfire
Joined: Feb 13 2008
Posts: 36
arcadesonfire
April 08, 2008 - 05:16 pm

Thanks for the quick reply IDeangelis. I hope you aren't offended or anything if i misinterpreted your previous post... i was taking this quote,

"Some options may not be possible because, if implemented, would take away other cool things other people love"

to mean that it would not be possible to fit in a "grunginess" control on the tape or vintage delay settings because it would take up too much data space and something else would have to be cut out. But again, i don't know how the heck things work, and maybe it's more a matter of an algorithm being set as is, like the vintage delay that's in there is it, and there's no way to change the parameters unless the whole darn vintage delay were replaced with another vintage delay algorithm altogether.

 Also, i know you're not in the business of "modeling" particular effects boxes, and i'm definitely not expecting to get the sound of a 40 year old tape deck out of a digital box. Rather, i used the term 'modeling' in a looser sense. Maybe i should have said 'simulating.' the wow and flutter and hiss "simulate" a tape delay...

So when everyone here is clamoring for a grungy, smeary delay, i don't think we're expecting for it to exactly mimic some multi-thousand dollar piece of vintage gear. Rather, we just wish that we could have something that gets us into that ballpark with our Timefactors rather than having to go out and get some other delay... i mean, that particular $250 stompbox in question doesn't do things perfectly, but it gets you into the ball park...

sooooo, i wish Eventide could/would tell me definitively that i shouldn't ever expect that kind of effect on this pedal, but maybe they don't know themselves?? Or maybe it should be obvious to me that these algorithms and parameters are going to be what they are, and it should be obvious to me that the purpose of this forum is finding and fixing bugs, not figuring out what effects to change/add.

Usually, effects pedals are as is, and this is the only one i've ever had that's upgradeable, so there's this whole new can of worms... do i go out and get a grungy delay, or do i wait and see if Eventide makes such a change in the future...??? 

Trazan
Joined: Feb 14 2008
Posts: 36
Trazan
April 08, 2008 - 08:11 pm

 Another vote for grungier tape delay. At least use that hiss control for something else ;-)

drfrankencopter
Joined: Apr 8 2008
Posts: 12
drfrankencopter
April 08, 2008 - 09:19 pm

 It wouldn't take too much to make the tape delay a whole lot more useable. Take the compressor algorithm from the dynamic/ducked delay, set it at 10:1 ratio, and put that in the feedback path for the tape delay in place of the 'hiss' control. Let the hiss knob control the compressor threshold, and you're a whole lot closer to a tape sound. 

 Speaking of the tape delay, it would have been nice(r) IMO to have a bandwidth control instead of a low pass filter only. My reasoning for this is that tape machines (especially small format ones used in tape echos) roll off both top and bottom from the repeats. Having a low pass only leads to excess mud buildup.

I'm not sure what's up with the vintage delay either....the noise issue is strange, ending up with a gating sound. Maybe some dither is required...or maybe it was there v 1.1, and got taken out with the Beta 2.0.  Those old delays used pre,and de-emphasis filters, as well as companders to improve the S/N. I have a feeling this wasn't included in the Timefactor implementation, and now we've become aware of why these things were required back in the early days of digital delay.

I don't mean to sound like I'm bagging on the Timefactor, because I am overall very impressed with the implementation of this delay. The flexibility, programmability, and control via expression pedal, are all incredible...add to this MIDI control, and USB upgrades, and that jsut puts it over the top. Oh yeah, it sounds great, and is one hell of a creative tool.

Cheers

Kris 

Giannis
Joined: Jan 31 2008
Posts: 4
Giannis
April 08, 2008 - 09:29 pm

+1000 !

 If Eventide can change the function of the X-knob for the vintage delay and make a better analog-like sound (like Boss DD-20, it has a great analog type sound), TimeFactor will be the Ultimate Delay pedal. I don't care even if I have to pay the double price, if I could have this sound.

 There must be a solution...

jcshirke
Joined: Jan 14 2008
Posts: 139
jcshirke
April 08, 2008 - 10:39 pm
I think it's important to keep straight a number of different issues in this thread. One, people seem to want the TF to be able to do a convincing lo-fi analog delay. I'm definitely one of those people. I'd be all for it if Eventide can manage to put one into this box. Two, other people seem to have some complaints about the current vintage delay in the TF--mostly the hiss knob. I'm *not* on board with the idea of monkeying around too much with the vintage algorithm. As Italo said early on, this algorithm is an attempt to emulate early, vintage *digital* delays, and I think the TF does a great job *as is*. I sold my Korg SDD-3000 "vintage" delay after A/B-ing it with the TF. All I had to do is put my Psionic Audio Triad pedal (which is a replica of the SDD-3000 preamp) in front of the TF, and it sounded at least as good as the Korg, if not better! And the hiss is actually quite realisitc. All of the noise of the SDD-3000 can be dialed in if you really want it. :) Three, there seems to be a third camp that is a bit unhappy with the quality of the tape delay algorithm in the TF. I admit that it could be better, and I won't be selling my Fulltone Tube Tape Echo anytime soon. But it still sounds good. I hope they just continue to tweak it. As for the main issue at hand, which is seeing if a good analog-style delay algorithm can fit in the TF, I'll just hope for the best. But I really don't want too much monkeying around with the vintage delay algorithm. I wouldn't try to convert that into an analog delay. Please leave the "guts" of that algorithm as is. Jeff
IDeangelis
Joined: Jan 9 2008
Posts: 1470
IDeangelis
April 09, 2008 - 04:51 am

 Hi JC

you have *really* nailed the subject!

There are a number of definitions that not everybody may be historically and technically aware of:

-tape delay 

-analog delay

-vintage delay

-lo-fi delay

Tape delay is *highly* dependent on mechanical technology, with its major aspects and artifacts/features such as wow & flutter, tape wear, heads wear, dirty on heads and analog tube or solid state preamp section.

Analog delay used different technologies. Most of the people should know that what they ask for is basically *one* of the most popular designs, using bucket brigade technology. Most components are gone for good!  For more info please check this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucket_Brigade_Device

Vintage Delay is meant to replicate the sonic features of early DIGITAL delay technology (not analog) and has nothing to do with lo-fi.... more on this later.  It's the sound of late '70s/early '80 Eventide/Lexicon/Roland/Korg/MXR/Ibanez DIgital Delay. These products remains the best learning lab in fx design I strongly advice to all younger musicians. For a few bucks you can get one of these puppies and learn how classic fx are made (slap back echo/Sound on Sound/ADT/notch filter/*phasing*/chorus/flanger/etc.)

Owed to non algorithmic nature of these delays, lower bitrate/sampling frequency of the A/D & D/A converters and to preamp stages, you'd typically get a darker tone in repeats with clear aliasing (noise!) when repeats progressively decay in level. The preamp sections would add a typical color and compression (sorry a compressor doesn't work, as somebody suggested).

Lo-Fi is a mid '90s definition for delays created in full digital domain, algorithms based, no preamp section (disappeared from digital FX units from early '90s), based on voluntary induced digital artifacts of such technology, such as bit reduction, aliasing, dithering. Typical sounds used to process just about any source in Electronic music...then migrated to almost any style!

These are 4 highly different, discrete and distinguished technologies that share nothing or possibly very, very little in algorithmic technology. Infact there is no product in a pedal format that even comes close to replicate all of them.

Some aspects are gone for good! You can't have that analog preamp technology with its color/saturation/compression in such products. It would be very expensive to add that.

The idea that you can get these different sounds from tweaking a fundamental algorithm is not correct...in terms of decent replication of all of them. So, in simple words....you may end up with 4 delay names and 4 sounds that are highly compromised as a result of mix & match, boil & peel to get to replicate all of them. In this regards JC is right about not "touching" what sounds right in favor of extending its capabilities to cover other different technologies. All of this has to be  considered  under the limitations imposed by DSP power and other available FX in the product too.

It would reasonably take 2 distinct products to really and possibly (if ever!) nail only these 4 types of delays, missing all other fx your TF already offers. It's not easy to make it sound right. Compromise..or too much of it is not a good path.

I'm trying to be more realistic and possibly provide some learning paths to these much sought after delay fx. Nevertheless ther is action in progress on TF.

all the best

drfrankencopter
Joined: Apr 8 2008
Posts: 12
drfrankencopter
April 09, 2008 - 09:58 am

 I might have confused things a little by posting about both the tape delay, and vintage delay algorithms.

 Re: vintage delay. I understand that this is a DIGITAL delay, and is an attempt to recapture some of the sounds associated with early digital devices. I've owned (and still own) quite a few of these myself, from the classic Boss DD-2, to the Korg SDD3000, TC2290, Lexicon PCM-41, and also the Roland SDE series. IMO,  the vintage delay routine does capture some of the elements of these kinds of delays, but the noise floor issue really limits its usefulness. With the latest Beta release it really sounds like there's a rapid transition from low bit-depth audio to high-depth audio as the repeats decay. It's that gating kind of sound that I'd associate from an early convertor without dither. Certainly none of my old digital delay units exhibit this kind of sound. Of course, they had to use all sorts of electronic trickery to get the best S/N out of low bit depth/low quality convertors...companding, and emphasis/de-emphasis was pretty common. These  operations have a significant effect on the resultant sound of the delay once the bit reduction takes place...and I don't think that they've been accounted for in the Timefactor algorithms (please correct me if I'm wrong).

Also, another desireable change, IMO, would be to allow the filters to have bandpass in the vintage delay mode. One of the great features of the SDD-3000 delay is that it has a high-pass and a low pass filter, so the delays can get progressively thinner with each repeat. This is far preferable (to me) than low pass only, which leads to mud. Listen to those early U2 albums, the delay is bandpassed, and the repeats get thinner. To me, a good compromise would be for the filter knob control low pass filter break point when dialed to the left, and when dialed to the right would bring in a high pass as well as a low pass (for example with high pass at 20Hz, and low pass at 20kHz with knob straight up, and high pass at 400Hz, and low pass at 1kHz with the knob full clockwise).

 Re: tape delay. To me, wow and flutter are not desireable characteristics for a  tape delay. Yes, they were the real limitations faced by these mechanical devices, but not something that was a really desireable sound. Tape compression, and preamp distortion, on the other hand were desireable. Yeah, a compressor isn't going to sound like tape compression, but at least it's something that adds an element of dependance on signal amplitude. I don't think it needs to be perfect, or even really close, but I think it would be more useful than wow/flutter and hiss control.

Re: BBD analog delay model...this would be very cool, but I'm not willing to give up the other algorithms to get it (well maybe multi-tap....I haven't found a good use for it yet).

Again, I'm blown away by Eventide's support for this product. I hope you guys haven't regretted putting in the ability to do USB updates due to too many user requests for new features...it's something about the TF that I really value. Thanks for listening!

Cheers, 

Kris 

elliot
Joined: Apr 1 2008
Posts: 9
elliot
April 09, 2008 - 01:28 pm

Finally the terms get a little definition! I was reading through this thread wanting to pull my hair out as "Vintage Delay" was conitinually being referred to when folks meant "Analog Delay". I'm not saying that "Mod Delay" will sound any more analog to folks on this thread, but that's the algorithm that has some of the characteristics people here are looking for - low pass filter on the repeats and modulation...sounds a lot like what many analog delays do (though some do actually get brighter as they feedback).

FWIW I have both my Deluxe Memory Man and TF on my board. I knew I was going to want to have delay effects while making loops so having two on the board was never really a question. I know this is not ideal for everyone but it works great for me.

One thing I would like to see change about the "Vinatge Delay" is that the signal feeding back should be 100% bit reduced to the degree chosen by the user. I don't know if this was updated in the second beta update (havn't loaded it yet due to janky internet connection) but in the first two public firmware iterations the bit reduced signal always has non-bit reduced signal blended together. This is definitely not the way any of the vintage delay units would behave. BTW - I LOVE bit reduction and find this to be a really cool distinguishing feature. If I could do anything to chnage this algorithm it would be changing the feedback mix as mentioned above and to make the bits go all the way down to 1.

- Elliot

arcadesonfire
Joined: Feb 13 2008
Posts: 36
arcadesonfire
April 09, 2008 - 05:00 pm

Yes, i recognize that in my posts, i have not been very clear on terminology, and i recognize that i've probably revealed much of my own ignorance regarding the history of delays...

So i'm not sure exactly what kind of delay this comes from (if it's digital, analog, etc...) but what i want, and what i think people have been asking for, is a kind of delay on which each successive repeat sounds different than the previous (thinner band-wise and perhaps more distorted?). The main thing drawing me to this is my experience with my build-your-own-clone DD-80, which i believe is a clone of the Boss DD-2 (but i'm not positive). I'm not sure exactly by what mechanism this occurs, but on that pedal, the DD-80, each successive repeat sounds a bit different than the previous.

 This is NOT the same as modulation... with the modulation on the TF vintage delay and mod delay, you can hear the periodicity of the modulation. But what i am wishing for, and what i think others are too, is a delay wherein each successive repeat is different than the previous--not in a periodic way, but instead being based on how long since that note or pluck or sound or whatever was put into the delay.

But again, i see Eventide's dilemma with the post up above saying that the wow and flutter are useless on the tape delay. While i agree that i would love the hiss control to be a saturation control and i don't use the flutter control much, i absolutely adore the 'wow' feature.

So if i love the wow feature, maybe there are users out there who love the hiss feature and who love the fuzziness as you turn up the x-knob on the vintage delay.

But if it does help to clarify, then what i'm wishing for in the vintage delay setting is something that gets more and more different with each successive repeat.  Maybe though, that sound was only featured on cheaper stompboxes of past (or as an invention in the 90s), and since Eventide has aimed to simulate the higher-end vintage delay units named by IDeangelis above, then it would seem inappropriate to Eventide to consider putting this kind of sound on their vintage delay effect (in which case, i say shucks, but others might praise Eventide for it).

So why not put my dd-80 on my board? cuz it's noisy, messes with my clean signal, and it's got no tap tempo!!!! 

arcadesonfire
Joined: Feb 13 2008
Posts: 36
arcadesonfire
April 09, 2008 - 05:03 pm

well now, don't get me wrong, i do love the sound of the Vintage Delay setting at the moment. I just wish it had the kind of flexibility where the x-knob would maybe take it from high-end 70s/80s rack unit to cheaper stompbox digital delay with successive signal degradation... that's my dream. 

jzucker
Joined: Apr 8 2008
Posts: 29
jzucker
April 10, 2008 - 09:09 am

I'm also VERY disappointed in the tape simulation as well as the bit reduced delays. I guess as usual in this industry the hype often outweighs the actual functionality. I had heard from many folks that this unit had a great analog/tape simulation and it definitely does not. I woudl say that this unit sounds like a typical rack delay in a floor form factor. That in itself is a nice selling point but kind of misses the boat compared to modeled delays like the DL4 (with all its inherent weaknesses) or the FractalAudio AxeFx.

 One thing I would suggest to the timefactor programmers is to pick up a Diamond Memory Lane which is analog and has a supurb delay mod along with a t-rex digital delay pedal which has a supurb and very sweet analog-sounding delay tone.

jcshirke
Joined: Jan 14 2008
Posts: 139
jcshirke
April 10, 2008 - 07:19 pm
My guess is that you haven't used older, bit reduced digital delays (like the Korg SDD3K, for instance). The TF nails that sound--issues of hi or low pass filters aside for the time being. I'll say it again. I A/B-ed my Korg SDD3K with the TF, and I then sold the Korg. If you don't happen to care for that bit reduced sound, fine, but it's certainly not an inherent weakness of the TF. It's pretty much a dead on accurate reproduction of that particular sound. I love it. All of my UF and JT era U2 delays are covered by using the vintage delay setting. I own a Memory Lane, and I've owned the Maxon AD-900 *and* AD-999. I also own a Fulltone Tube Tape Echo. If Eventide can make the tape echo sound a bit closer to the real thing, great. If they can manage to put a Bucket Brigade, analog sounding delay in the TF somehow, even better! But that really is asking one box to do just about every delay style imaginable. That's a tall order. Personally, I think if you have a TF and/or a Memory Lane (or a Fulltone TTE), you've got all your delay styles covered. The TF is definitely not overhyped--not by a long shot. They don't just hand out Guitar Player Editors' Pick awards to anyone for no good reason. Jeff
jzucker
Joined: Apr 8 2008
Posts: 29
jzucker
April 10, 2008 - 08:48 pm

you're wrong. I had the 2 space mxr rack mount digital delay when it first came out and it sounded amazing.     

jzucker
Joined: Apr 8 2008
Posts: 29
jzucker
April 10, 2008 - 08:55 pm

 just wanted to say though that I do really like the vintage delay with modulation. Sounds very warm.

drfrankencopter
Joined: Apr 8 2008
Posts: 12
drfrankencopter
April 10, 2008 - 11:26 pm

 I've got an SDD-3000, and while the vintage delay algorithm of the TF comes close to capturing that vibe, the noise floor is much higher than that of the Korg (once the bit level has been reduced to make the repeats sound similar). I think it needs some dither, or maybe some other algorithmic trick to improve the S/N ratio. I like the overall sound of the algorithm except when the delays are about to fade out.

Cheers

Kris 

jcshirke
Joined: Jan 14 2008
Posts: 139
jcshirke
April 10, 2008 - 11:53 pm
My SDD3K was a noisy beast, and I had had it serviced by someone who is widely known as being especially good at working with that unit. My TF had slightly less noise when I compared them, but I thought the overall tone of the TF (+ Triad pedal, which is key for nailing the Korg SDD3K sound) was better than the Korg. But you must have a Korg that's in awfully good shape, so good for you. Maybe one day you'll sell it to me? ;) Jeff
drfrankencopter
Joined: Apr 8 2008
Posts: 12
drfrankencopter
April 11, 2008 - 09:39 am

 The real trick with the SDD3K is to make sure that there is good grounding connections between the various jacks, and also on the circuit boards themselves. Over time the grounding screws can come loose on the boards, and this can lead to increased noise, and eventually very chaotic behaviour of the delay. The Timefactor is less noisy than my SDD3K, except when I'm usng the vintage delay algorithm.


Are you using Beta 2.xxxx on the TF, or ver 1.1. I think that 1.1 sounded better....noisier, but no gating etc.

Cheers

Kris 

jzucker
Joined: Apr 8 2008
Posts: 29
jzucker
April 11, 2008 - 10:10 am
I have to admit that I've fallen in love with the vintage delay with modulation. After originally saying it sounded bad, I've decided that it's the only delay I've heard that can sound like my original MXR rack mount digital delay. This setting is probably going to get me to keep the timefactor.
Crysstalized
Joined: Jan 18 2008
Posts: 35
Crysstalized
April 15, 2008 - 07:17 pm

I think for the tape mode that drfrankencopter had an interesting comment about the filter. I too think it needs a little more low-end (in addition to the highs) taken off with the repeats, so that when the repeats stretch out you can hear the fidelity decrease with the EQ and dirtiness. I'm still begging to take away the hiss on the xnob and replace it with some sort of dirty control (tape saturation or preamp dirt--but only on the repeats not the dry!).

There are so many of us that want these features here and elsewhere. Is there any word from Eventide about these features being included yet?

Crysstalized
Joined: Jan 18 2008
Posts: 35
Crysstalized
June 19, 2008 - 06:37 pm
Now that the operational issues are worked out with a full version 2.0, can we expect an upgrade of the Tape and Vintage Delays now?