You are here

H9 inputs clip when in FX loop of amp

Login to Post to Forums

You must be logged in to the Eventide website in order to post to our forums. If you do not have an account, you will need to create one. You may also reset your password.

15 posts / 0 new
Last post
boyce89976
Joined: May 8 2014
Posts: 13

H9 inputs clip when in FX loop of amp

November 12, 2015 - 03:27 pm

I really want to use my H9 in the effects loop of my amp, but when I do, the inputs clip, and I get a very nasty distortion.  There is no clipping when running in front of the amp.  The amp is a Matchless HC30 which has a passive, serial loop.  My TimeFactor has no problem running through the fx loop, but you can select "guitar" level or "line" level on the rear of the unit for the input and output, and I run it on the "line" level settings.  Why can't we have a selectable input/output level control in the H9?  

I have set the input level for the H9 as low as it can be in the H9 app, but it's not low enough for the effects loop.  Instead of just being able to increase the level via the app, it would be nice to be able to attenuate it by up to -6db.  

 

nickrose's picture
Eventide Staff
nickrose
Joined: Jan 17 2008
Posts: 4418
November 12, 2015 - 03:36 pm

It sounds like your effects loop output is too hot for the H9. Check for a level control on the amp.

Otherwise, if you've set the H9's input gain to its lowest level, you will need a suitable pad or attenuator. Simplest way is to have a tech wire up a few resistors to make an attenuating lead.

 

boyce89976
Joined: May 8 2014
Posts: 13
November 12, 2015 - 03:43 pm

It's a passive, serial loop, as stated in the OP.  

boyce89976
Joined: May 8 2014
Posts: 13
November 12, 2015 - 03:45 pm

If I pad the input into the H9, will it adjust the output to unity, or will I need to increase the output level externally?  

nickrose's picture
Eventide Staff
nickrose
Joined: Jan 17 2008
Posts: 4418
November 12, 2015 - 05:04 pm

Your "passive serial loop" clearly has (lots of) gain, so may not be very passive.

If you pad the signal on the way in, the output will be reduced by the same amount. This is as well, as otherwise the output of the unit would overload. If your loop does not have a return gain, it may be a problem.

While I personally wish we had put a line-in switch on the H9, we did not, so it should be used at guitar level. You might want to contact your amp manufacturer and ask them why they put so much gain on their effects loops - I suspect ours is not the only pedal which would have trouble with it.

 

boyce89976
Joined: May 8 2014
Posts: 13
November 13, 2015 - 12:42 am

My Strymon pedals work fine in the loop.  My Timefactor clips unless its set to line level.  

joeydego
Joined: Jul 23 2014
Posts: 39
December 05, 2015 - 03:48 am

This seems to be the biggest issue this pedal has. Is there no way to come up with a software based input pad for the H9 in a future release?

nickrose's picture
Eventide Staff
nickrose
Joined: Jan 17 2008
Posts: 4418
December 05, 2015 - 10:06 am

joeydego wrote:

This seems to be the biggest issue this pedal has. Is there no way to come up with a software based input pad for the H9 in a future release?

Sorry - not possible. This is a hardware issue. The H9 was designed to operate at guitar level, not line level.

 

boyce89976
Joined: May 8 2014
Posts: 13
December 05, 2015 - 03:38 pm
nickrose wrote:

joeydego wrote:

This seems to be the biggest issue this pedal has. Is there no way to come up with a software based input pad for the H9 in a future release?

Sorry - not possible. This is a hardware issue. The H9 was designed to operate at guitar level, not line level.

 

Please explain?. You can trim the input gain positive, why not negative also?

nickrose's picture
Eventide Staff
nickrose
Joined: Jan 17 2008
Posts: 4418
December 05, 2015 - 04:48 pm

[/quote] Please explain?. You can trim the input gain positive, why not negative also?[/quote]

I understand your puzzlement, but this is a hardware feature of the A/D converter - it will boost but not cut. Even if it did, the front end would clip first.

This is obviously not a great design feature, but alas not easily changed.

 

stilllife
Joined: Dec 23 2015
Posts: 1
December 23, 2015 - 11:33 am

I would have bought an H9 by now but I came across this line level issue.  I want to know if I can use the H9 with my rig.  I am DAW based, and would like know in advance that I can run line outs from a Kronos, Analog Keys, and Minibrute into the H9 directly, and output the H9 to my DAW.  My DAW outputs to active monitors.  

While you say the H9 should be used only with instrument level devices, others say your documentation states it can successfully work with line level devices like synths.

So, will it work sans clipping in my setup?    

nickrose's picture
Eventide Staff
nickrose
Joined: Jan 17 2008
Posts: 4418
December 23, 2015 - 02:06 pm

stilllife wrote:

I would have bought an H9 by now but I came across this line level issue.  I want to know if I can use the H9 with my rig.  I am DAW based, and would like know in advance that I can run line outs from a Kronos, Analog Keys, and Minibrute into the H9 directly, and output the H9 to my DAW.  My DAW outputs to active monitors.  

While you say the H9 should be used only with instrument level devices, others say your documentation states it can successfully work with line level devices like synths.

So, will it work sans clipping in my setup?    

The H9 is looking for a guitar level input. It is a guitar pedal.

In practise, of course, it was designed to have headrom, and will work with some line inputs.

But, we cannot promise that it will work undistorted with whatever level it is fed. It is looking for a guitar level input. Sorry.

If you can show me any Eventide documentation that claims otherwise, I would be grateful and will get it corrected.

We are, of course, very happy for people to use our products in ways we had not envisaged, but we suspect that it is their responsibility to meet our product 's requirements in such cases.

 

nickrose's picture
Eventide Staff
nickrose
Joined: Jan 17 2008
Posts: 4418
December 23, 2015 - 02:52 pm

When I get back to the 'Tide after the holiday (our decent employers like their staff to have a modicum of rest), I'll report the maximum input level the H9 will tolerate, in both Volts and dBu.

This is made more complicated by the fact that it has a "soft clipper," at the front end, so it will need a lot of signal to actually clip, but distortion will increase when overdriven below this point.

Maybe I should give levels for 0.1%, 1% and 10% distortion. (0.1% is hi-fi, 1% is funky, 10% is nasty).

I think that once this is done, it is entirely reasonable to say that if people are not using it with a guitar, it is wholly (100%, not 10%) their responsibilty to give it the right signal level,.

 

 

 

noa206
Joined: Apr 23 2015
Posts: 1
December 30, 2015 - 07:32 am

Looks like I will have to sell the H9. It doesn't work in a line level situation without clipping. Too bad and misleading. I mean, if it was just for guitar, why would it have stereo inputs?

Moving to Strymon. Should have done this from the beginning. Can I transfer the Algos I purchased to a new buyer?

azone
Joined: Feb 25 2016
Posts: 1
February 25, 2016 - 12:45 am

This pedal may not be designed for synths but it would be great to be able to decrease the input level for use with synths. Especially for older analog synths that are already noisy w/ low dynamic range, I have decrease the output level of thses synths in order for the H9 not to clip. I lose 6dB or more of headroom.