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Alancarl
Joined: Sep 28 2015
Posts: 24

H9 smooth volume control

July 14, 2018 - 07:12 am

Hi,

     I am trying to use an EV-5  expression pedal to control the Input Level on my H9 but the zipper noise is making this scenario unuseable for me.

If I am missing something LMK.

If the problem is the H9 could this be improved with some lag processing or some type of smoothing algorithm?

In the professional environments that I play in a volume pedal with a visual indicator (which the H9 does beautifully BTW!) would be of great use!

Eventide, thanks though for a great product... I love my H9's!!

Al

 

bohan's picture
Eventide Staff
bohan
Joined: Jan 9 2018
Posts: 417
July 18, 2018 - 06:10 pm

alancarl wrote:

If the problem is the H9 could this be improved with some lag processing or some type of smoothing algorithm?

It is H9's hardware limit. Some algorithm is computationally heavy. When you move your expression pedal, a number of parameters are changing. So there will be a lot of computation going on in the processor. For those algorithms, if you unmap all expression mappings and only use the expression for the input volume, it may behave better. 

Alancarl
Joined: Sep 28 2015
Posts: 24
July 18, 2018 - 11:37 pm

Hi
Thanks for your response. I believe when you map the expression pedal to volume globally which is what I did all of the other expression mapping’s are suspended. I will verify this and I will manually remove all mapping’s even if they are temporarily suspended by the global setting.
I hope this can be made smooth but I am not holding my breath.
Thanks again
Al

Alancarl
Joined: Sep 28 2015
Posts: 24
July 19, 2018 - 11:45 am

bohan wrote:

It is H9's hardware limit. Some algorithm is computationally heavy. When you move your expression pedal, a number of parameters are changing. So there will be a lot of computation going on in the processor. For those algorithms, if you unmap all expression mappings and only use the expression for the input volume, it may behave better. 

The expression pedal mapping being bypassed when the the patch is made globally is accurate. I also deleted all expression pedal mappings on a few various effect algorithm presets with no apparent improvement in the zipper noise.

 

So is the issue of zipper noise when using an expression pedal to control overall volume one that can't be improved because there are simply not enough computational cycles left afetr the wonderful Eventide effects are crunched?

I simply want to know if i am barking up a dead horses's tree:-)

If so I will find another way.

Thanks,

AL

 

 

 

bohan's picture
Eventide Staff
bohan
Joined: Jan 9 2018
Posts: 417
July 19, 2018 - 11:08 pm

alancarl wrote:

The expression pedal mapping being bypassed when the patch is made globally. I also deleted all expression pedal mappings on a few various effect algorithm presets with no apparent improvement in the zipper noise.

So is the issue of zipper noise when using an expression pedal to control overall volume one that can't be improved because there are simply not enough computational cycles left after the wonderful Eventide effects are crunched?

If you turn on expression control global input, it will ignore all expression mappings. If you set it on a preset by preset basis, it won't ignore the mappings. That's why I suggested you unmap the expression controls.

I just tried my H9 with an expression pedal controlling global input volume. It worked fine and I didn't experience any zipper noise or latency. Do you have this issue on all algorithms? Can you shoot a short video to demonstrate this noise?

Alancarl
Joined: Sep 28 2015
Posts: 24
July 21, 2018 - 11:02 pm

I am experiencing zipper noise with expression controlled input or output volume patches with any of the algorithms that I have tried.
I will capture my results when I have a free moment but I’m not sure what this will do in this query that I started.
Thanks
Al

teq0
Joined: Jul 20 2018
Posts: 5
August 18, 2018 - 05:11 am

bohan wrote:

Some algorithm is computationally heavy.

 

True, but a simple volume control is absolutely not computationally heavy, especially when you have the kind of DSP hardware that the H9 does.

I think there's something wrong with the way the H9 calibrates expression pedals. I have an Ernie Ball VP Jnr 25k pedal, even with zero effects on and the pedal set to control global volume out, it's very uneven, and the stepping in the lower ranges is terrible. Fading up from silent kicks in quite suddenly, and there is little change after about 80% up. With distorted (Sculpt) sounds it's even more noticable, to the point of being completely unusable.

This is purely a calibration problem (or it's a hardware problem with the A/D converter in the expression input). The same pedal used with a Line6 M13 is totally smooth, fading in gently, and the whole range of the pedal is usable, it feels like an inline analog volume pedal. So it's not the pedal.

The only help I've found on re-calibrating is to turn calibration off and then on again, but this hasn't made any difference.

 

 

teq0
Joined: Jul 20 2018
Posts: 5
November 17, 2018 - 07:47 am

teq0 wrote:

I think there's something wrong with the way the H9 calibrates expression pedals. I have an Ernie Ball VP Jnr 25k pedal, even with zero effects on and the pedal set to control global volume out, it's very uneven, and the stepping in the lower ranges is terrible.

Awesome customer support, Eventide. Do you even pay attention to your own customer forums? Are you looking in to why this incredibly powerful DSP box can't even do a simple volume control or wah-wah effect? I am so close to selling it, there is very little that it does that other pedals don't do as good or better.

bohan's picture
Eventide Staff
bohan
Joined: Jan 9 2018
Posts: 417
November 17, 2018 - 05:52 pm

teq0 wrote:

Are you looking into why this incredibly powerful DSP box can't even do a simple volume control or wah-wah effect? I am so close to selling it, there is very little that it does that other pedals don't do as good or better.

If you want to calibrate your expression pedal for your H9, you can use H9 Control to do that. You need go to Pedal Settings -> General Settings -> Pedal Calibration Disabled, and click from Yes to No, then move your pedal from heel to toe for a couple of times. You can check if it's perfectly calibrated in the Presets screen, see if the heel and toe move the ribbon from the left end to the right end. After it's calibrated, please go back to the Pedal Calibration Disabled page to lock the expression by clicking Yes.

If you need to use your expression pedal as a wah-wah pedal, you can use the Q-Wah algorithm. Factory preset F6 Vintage Wah is a good example. If you set TYPE parameter to WAHWAH and SHAPE parameter to EXP PDL, you can use your expression to do wah-wah effects.

Alancarl
Joined: Sep 28 2015
Posts: 24
November 18, 2018 - 02:01 am

My solution is to just use an analog volume pedal in the audio chain...works great and I still love my H-9’s! I have an H9 Max so I get the new algorithms free! This is not something that I have not found other pedal manufactures do very often FWIW.
Good luck!
Al

bansta
Joined: Feb 2 2018
Posts: 41
November 19, 2018 - 05:26 am

My BOSS FV500L volume pedal is connected to my Boss ES-8, which sends a MIDI CC (input volume) to the second, last in the chain, H9 (that is allways on). It works absolutely amazing, with any artifacts, but with a couple of positive side effects: At first I don't have the volume pedal in the signal path, and second: I can use the pedal on a preset basis for different purposes (expression, for example) as well.

 

Alancarl
Joined: Sep 28 2015
Posts: 24
November 20, 2018 - 12:50 am
bansta wrote:

My BOSS FV500L volume pedal is connected to my Boss ES-8, which sends a MIDI CC (input volume) to the second, last in the chain, H9 (that is allways on). It works absolutely amazing, with any artifacts, but with a couple of positive side effects: At first I don't have the volume pedal in the signal path, and second: I can use the pedal on a preset basis for different purposes (expression, for example) as well.

 

That’s cool that you are getting useful results with this type of setup...
However I was noticing the zipper noise when I was trying to change the H9’s input or output volume with midi cc’s or w it’s own expression pedal input.
It’s subtle but noticeable in a quiet setting especially. Nonetheless I still love Eventide and the H9!
Thanks
Al

teq0
Joined: Jul 20 2018
Posts: 5
November 20, 2018 - 07:34 pm

Thanks for replying, Bohan, but I don't think you've read this thread. It's not about calibration, and I have already purchased Q-wah. The problem isn't about the range. For example with volume control, whether global or per preset, full heel is off (0%) and full toe is 100%, that part is fine.

The problem is that as the pedal moves from 0-100% it's not smooth, it "zippers", in that you can hear it jump between values. The same with wah, or in fact anything you control from the expression pedal. One explanation would be that the pedal's value isn't sampled often enough, so that between two samples the value has jumped. I installed software version 5.6.0 recently but it's still there. The problem is particularly noticable in the lower ranges.

Again, there is nothing wrong with my expression pedal, it's an Ernie Ball VP Jr 25k, and it works perfectly (i.e. it's perfectly smooth) with other equipment, like a Line6 M13. Your earlier response of "I just tried it with mine and it works fine" is not how customer support works! The Ernie Ball VP Jr 25k is the pedal recommended by Eventide for the H9 (on this page). Is that what you are using?

Someone said in another post that it used to be smooth, but with a software update a year or two ago it started to have the zipper problem. 

Alancarl
Joined: Sep 28 2015
Posts: 24
November 21, 2018 - 05:03 am

After I started this thread and I got some reply’s from Bohan I tested the zipper noise issue more. IIRC one reason given was that some algorithms are ‘computationally large’ hence the grainy volume sweeps. I was sceptical but I tried and I found no basis for this reasoning. All of the algorithms I tried exhibited this lack of smooth volume control that I was looking for.
To sum it up:
1. The zipper noise is there and has been for a long time
2. It bothers some and is not an issue fir others
I suppose that Eventide May have needed more CPU time for something like smoother patch changes globally hence the decrease in expression pedal performance?
I still love my H9’s I maxed out @5!!
Peace
Al

gkellum's picture
gkellum
Joined: Mar 2 2011
Posts: 2280
November 21, 2018 - 08:36 am

Alancarl wrote:

After I started this thread and I got some reply’s from Bohan I tested the zipper noise issue more. IIRC one reason given was that some algorithms are ‘computationally large’ hence the grainy volume sweeps.

Yeah, that probably wasn't the best way to describe the problem.  The reason for the zipper noise is that the changes in level are handled by the control rate thread.  For smooth level changes we'd have to add smooth ramping between levels on the DSP thread.  When we first added this feature, we were adverse to implement it in this second way, because it was going to be a deeper change that would require more work and might push a few algorithms over the resource limit.  So, we implemented this in the first way, reasoning that even if it wasn't ideal to do it in the first way there were still a fair number of users who would find the feature helpful and make use of it.  

 

teq0
Joined: Jul 20 2018
Posts: 5
November 21, 2018 - 02:56 pm

gkellum wrote:

So, we implemented this in the first way, reasoning that even if it wasn't ideal to do it in the first way there were still a fair number of users who would find the feature helpful and make use of it.  

Thanks for the clarification. In what scenarios do you think having an expression pedal respond in a non-linear, discrete way would be useful? Which H9 algorithms?

Because it's unusable for volume, any filter effects, distortion, pitch etc.

I use an expression pedal precisely so that I don't need to have separate analog volume and wah pedals on my pedal board, as well as being able to control other parameters to do cool things.

If you're saying you have no plans to fix it then that's fine, I'll just have to sell the H9 and get something else.

presetmodes
Joined: Jun 11 2019
Posts: 2
June 11, 2019 - 06:45 pm

At first I would express my respect for the work you put into this pedal.

The H9 will never be an all in one MultiFX. If you want this buy a MultiFX.

There are some professional solutions available for Volume control, including: a Volume Pedal.

Thanks, have a nice day!°

 

 

 

presetmodes
Joined: Jun 11 2019
Posts: 2
June 14, 2019 - 02:04 pm

ok, checked this today and can confirm that while using the expression input you get zipper noise with the volume control of the H9.

When using a midi controler and the midi input you get smooth and perfect volume changes.

Well, even though I just thought I can now get every product I can think of, it seems there is still plenty of room for inovations in the industry, like a switchable Volume/Expression pedal :D

teq0
Joined: Jul 20 2018
Posts: 5
June 14, 2019 - 08:30 pm

I think you're missing the bigger point - since the zippering is to do with how the expression pedal is being sampled it's actually there for everything, it's just particularly noticeable when using it to control volume. It's also there if you use it as a wah, or to control any parameters. 

The expression pedal is basically useless.

I wasn't expecting a multi-fx pedal, I knew exactly what I getting. I was shocked that a pedal with that much DSP grunt would have trouble doing the simplest possible signal processing algorithm, and further shocked when an Eventide representative said basically "yeah, we made a bad design choice but we're not going to fix it", and then didn't bother to answer my question "in what scenario would this behaviour in an expression pedal be actually OK?"

I got a Line6 HX Stomp, which is way more flexible, has way more features, doesn't charge you per effect, and the expression pedal works perfectly. And has linear and log scaling. Yes, there a few sounds that the H9 does better, but they happen to be ones I would rarely use, and the HX Stomp equivalents are perfectly useable.

camn
Joined: Sep 19 2016
Posts: 304
June 15, 2019 - 02:35 pm

You should definately sell it and get something else.