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ROSE - Subtle ops questions - could someone confirm?

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Kristal_Rose's picture
Kristal_Rose
Joined: Nov 10 2020
Posts: 11

ROSE - Subtle ops questions - could someone confirm?

Kristal_Rose
November 15, 2020 - 08:47 am

One day in, several tutorials and reading, still have questions and speculations.

Hopefully someone can save me a lot of time and confirm my first guesses on undocumented technicalities here.

Is a deeper manual than the quick reference and videos available anywhere?

This has got to be the most beautifully engineered single-process pedal I have ever encountered, with utility I've been waiting years to find. Thanks.

 

#1 The A/B morph, when used with an expression pedal shifts between all knobs and buttons including d & p, and range, but not LFO shape.

#2 The LFO modulator adjusts the delay by amount of the depth knob, but does not modulate settings of any of the knobs.

#3 The depth is proportional to either the delay range, or delay, or delay range + delay. (which?)

#4 Likewise the depth and rate are both proportional to the A/B morph.

#5 At any time the expression pedal is in full heel position, adjustments to knobs will alter the unsaved A setting.

#6 Likewise, at any time the expression pedal is in full toe position, adjustments to knobs will alter the unsaved B setting.

#7 Any idea what adjustments to knobs when between heel and toe does?

#8 The only way to assign trs expression to any independent features is by using the A/B morphing.

#9 The hotswitch only does one function at a time (a video used the phrase ‘add’ a function).

#10 Saving a preset saves both it’s A & B settings simultaneously, and can be done at any time, including if one has hotswitched over to B.

#11 As with CC control and hotswitch control, Expression A/B morphing of polar settings will flip between settings between heel and toe.

#12 The USB MIDI socket operates as a slave only and does not support slave controllers. A USB MIDI Host device would be required to use a CC controller without a computer.

#13 USB MIDI CC control (excluding expression assignment) and the trs expression pedal functions can operate simultaneously. ??

#14 Neither the USB nor trs MIDI transmit anything other than internal sysex; The USB will not serve as a midi-thru IO for the midi trs.

#15 Using CC control of the parameters will overwrite whatever the Rose is using at the moment regardless of position within the A/B morph, without affecting either stored or unsaved session A or B settings.

#16 Using the A/B expression morph will overwrite the most recent midi CC parameter change with whatever expression interpolation of the original A/B settings was present prior to the midi CC.

joecozzi's picture
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joecozzi
Joined: May 19 2015
Posts: 277
joecozzi (My Eventide Gear)
November 16, 2020 - 10:37 am

Quote:

#1 The A/B morph, when used with an expression pedal shifts between all knobs and buttons including d & p, and range, but not LFO shape.

If the LFO Shape is programmed differently on A and B, the shift will occur after the pedal crosses the midway point.

Quote:

#2 The LFO modulator adjusts the delay by amount of the depth knob, but does not modulate settings of any of the knobs.

The LFO controls the delay buffer only, so you’re correct that no other knob parameters are affected.

Quote:

#3 The depth is proportional to either the delay range, or delay, or delay range + delay. (which?)

The depth control response depends on both the delay range and the delay, but not proportionally. In general, the range and taper of all the controls (depth, rate, feedback, etc.) change depending on the selected delay-range in order to keep these controls in the "sweet spot" over the full range of delay values.

Quote:

#4 Likewise the depth and rate are both proportional to the A/B morph.

As you sweep an expression pedal back and forth, the parameter values move in proportion to the pedal movement. If you change from A to B using the Hotswitch, for example, the changes happen immediately.

Quote:

#5 At any time the expression pedal is in full heel position, adjustments to knobs will alter the unsaved A setting.

Correct. Remember, the changes are lost if the preset is not saved when switching to another preset.

Quote:

#6 Likewise, at any time the expression pedal is in full toe position, adjustments to knobs will alter the unsaved B setting.

Correct.

Quote:

#7 Any idea what adjustments to knobs when between heel and toe does?

The expression pedal mid-point is used to determine heel/toe position. So, when the knobs are adjusted with the expression pedal past 50%, this adjusts the B settings. Otherwise, the A settings will be adjusted.

Quote:

#8 The only way to assign trs expression to any independent features is by using the A/B morphing.

The short answer is "yes." There's no way to assign the expression pedal to individual parameters other than via A/B morphing. But morphing achieves the same results, as the parameters that are "assigned" to the expression pedal can be individually selected by making the A/B values the same for parameters that should not be affected.  TIP1: Use PHI+DELTA to set A&B settings the same. TIP2: Hold PHI while turning any knob to set A&B values the same for that knob.

Quote:

#9 The hotswitch only does one function at a time (a video used the phrase ‘add’ a function).

Correct, you can assign the Hotswitch to function as a tap tempo, engage repeat, pause modulation, reset mod LFO, A/B switch, activate Phi, or activate Delta.

Quote:

#10 Saving a preset saves both it’s A & B settings simultaneously, and can be done at any time, including if one has hotswitched over to B.

Correct. Keep in mind that if you save the preset while in the B position, it will be recalled in the B position.

Quote:

#11 As with CC control and hotswitch control, Expression A/B morphing of polar settings will flip between settings between heel and toe.

Correct.

Quote:

#12 The USB MIDI socket operates as a slave only and does not support slave controllers. A USB MIDI Host device would be required to use a CC controller without a computer.

Rose can be controlled by MIDI controllers that have USB MIDI Host capabilities. However, Rose does not generate or pass on any MIDI information to other devices.

Quote:

#13 USB MIDI CC control (excluding expression assignment) and the trs expression pedal functions can operate simultaneously. ??

No. If Rose is in Expression pedal mode, it cannot receive MIDI CC messages. However, In MIDI mode, you can control Rose via a MIDI controller that has expressional pedal inputs. Sending CC messages using an expression pedal works the same way as having a pedal connected to Rose.

Quote:

#14 Neither the USB nor trs MIDI transmit anything other than internal sysex; The USB will not serve as a midi-thru IO for the midi trs.

That is correct. All MIDI connections are inputs only.

Quote:

#15 Using CC control of the parameters will overwrite whatever the Rose is using at the moment regardless of position within the A/B morph, without affecting either stored or unsaved session A or B settings.

Sending MIDI CC messages has the same effect as turning the corresponding knob. So, if A is active, a MIDI CC will change the A settings. Likewise, if B is active, MIDI CC's affect the B settings.

Quote:

#16 Using the A/B expression morph will overwrite the most recent midi CC parameter change with whatever expression interpolation of the original A/B settings was present prior to the midi CC.

No. MIDI CC's work just like changing the front-panel knobs. They always change either the A or B parameters directly.

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Kristal_Rose
Joined: Nov 10 2020
Posts: 11
Kristal_Rose
November 16, 2020 - 04:05 pm

Fantastic. It works as I would hope and suspect. You saved me a lot of time here. Thanks. #15 & #16 and might have taken me some time to realize what's going on, even with testing.

One final question then, do those A & B trs expression midpoint consequences hold true for midi CC operation as well? I'm guessing so.

Hmm, that's going to complicate creating alterations of endpoints for smooth transitions. I'll have to store two sets of arrays, and test for expression location before changing one or the other. Doing it accurately would actually be much crazier, involving three sets, one for what's there now, one for what you want, and one to emulate how to get there based on expression location based on what you can change until you pass through the middle. ..or something like that. - Having CCs for A & B of each parameter, or better yet, just as it is with one CC per parameter, but a toggle for whether incoming CC adjusts A or B would have made that sort of thing much easier.

I suppose if I were willing to go that far, it would make more sense to forego expression, and deliver full CC sets to just A (if midi bandwidth resolution supports that), with the expression taking place entirely in an an external morphing script.
I haven't even hooked up any midi yet; I may discover there is some midi latency which nullifies such thinking.

I'm pretty happy with what it does already without any midi at all. Very smooth time and pitch for all that range.
In the category of single effect pedals this is the most thoughtful engineering I've ever seen, as one would hope for from a name-sake product, the way (and ui style) I like to design things myself. My middle name is also Rose.

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joecozzi
Joined: May 19 2015
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joecozzi (My Eventide Gear)
November 17, 2020 - 11:12 am

Quote:

One final question then, do those A & B trs expression midpoint consequences hold true for midi CC operation as well? I'm guessing so.

That's correct. MIDI CC's work just like adjusting a knob on the Rose.

Quote:

Having CCs for A & B of each parameter, or better yet, just as it is with one CC per parameter, but a toggle for whether incoming CC adjusts A or B would have made that sort of thing much easier.

This can be accomplished by sending an Expression Pedal MIDI CC value to select A or B and then sending the required CC parameters. An expression pedal CC value of 0 (heel down) selects A parameters; CC=127 (toe down) selects B parameters.

Quote:

I suppose if I were willing to go that far, it would make more sense to forego expression, and deliver full CC sets to just A (if midi bandwidth resolution supports that), with the expression taking place entirely in an an external morphing script.

Yes, morphing completely in an external script is also an option. This should work just fine. If done this way, only the CC values that are morphing need to be sent, which is often less than the full set.

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Kristal_Rose
Joined: Nov 10 2020
Posts: 11
Kristal_Rose
November 17, 2020 - 01:48 pm

The A or B target for CC, and no expression position A/B effect when using CC expression would still be considerably easier when attempting to sub-morph presets 'while' using expression morphing. I'm pretty sure continuity would be destroyed interupting a morph to jump to a setting, set parameters, then return to where one was in the expression morph.

My feature wishlist, but I'm probably your only customer for that feature, and I do have the workaround of emulating the A/B morphing externally altogether. I'd actually been planning on writing that for like a decade now for other devices anyhow. It's why I got the iPad Lemur app.

Good point on the 'only changed values' efficacy.

Thanks, all done here.