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TremoloPan Algorithm starting out of sync

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zwolf
Joined: Oct 29 2013
Posts: 37

TremoloPan Algorithm starting out of sync

September 28, 2018 - 01:58 pm

I'm sending clock to my H9 via Ableton Live and in general, all my tempo synced FX are working perfectly. But I'm having an issue with this algo on two different songs where I've set up midi clips to activate the effect in specific spots. On one song, the H9 syncs perfectly every time on the first instance, but when the effect is activated for the 2nd instance a few minutes later, it's out...almost sounds rushed as if it's a BPM too fast.

In the other song I'm having issues with, it's pretty much a 50-50 equation - sometimes it syncs perfectly, sometimes the above rushed syndrome.

My question is whether there is something I can do - some kind of message I can send the H9 ahead of the problematic part to "reset" it... or any other ideas?

Bodde's picture
Bodde
Joined: Oct 26 2014
Posts: 251
September 30, 2018 - 04:16 am

That's because you start in the middle of a cycle. You need a restart like with the Harpegiattor. But the trem algo doesn't have that. Better yet is a restart that restarts at the first attack. But you need a button now for the restart which is inconvenient.

zwolf
Joined: Oct 29 2013
Posts: 37
September 30, 2018 - 08:28 pm

bodde wrote:

That's because you start in the middle of a cycle. You need a restart like with the Harpegiattor. But the trem algo doesn't have that. Better yet is a restart that restarts at the first attack. But you need a button now for the restart which is inconvenient.

That makes a lot of sense, and that is what it sounds like - not exactly off time so much as just off cycle. It's really messing me up. How do you know when the cycle starts? Is it from when the patch is changed? Is it from the point of activation? When you mention a button for restart, what are you refrering to - activating the preset? I haven't tried that, but if so, that's good news because it is midi controllable; i.e. I could send it a midi message from ableton at a specific spot and try to get it back on cycle.

any further ideas appreciated. there has to be a way to keep it in sync...

brock's picture
brock
Joined: Jan 3 2010
Posts: 903
October 01, 2018 - 08:41 am

zwolf wrote:

... When you mention a button for restart, what are you refrering to - activating the preset? I haven't tried that, but if so, that's good news because it is midi controllable; i.e. I could send it a midi message from ableton at a specific spot and try to get it back on cycle.

any further ideas appreciated. there has to be a way to keep it in sync...

I haven't tried this over MIDI, but a single Tap press is reported to reset the LFO.  That may be low point of the waveform cycle, though.  https://www.eventideaudio.com/comment/8652#comment-8652

Bodde's picture
Bodde
Joined: Oct 26 2014
Posts: 251
October 01, 2018 - 08:43 am

Not sure when the cycle starts. If you look at the Harpegiator algo you see a restart button in the software. Middle button. You have to connect that to a midi controller. Which is inconvenient. Would makes more to me if the restart would happen at the first attack of the string or when it hits a certain threshold. But unfortunately it doesn't work that way. So it is impossible to get in sync. The trem algo doesn't have a restart or retrigger at all. So it will never run in sync with a metronome.

zwolf
Joined: Oct 29 2013
Posts: 37
February 26, 2019 - 01:50 pm

Months later, this is still killing me. What I can't understand is the following: I have one song sequenced in Ableton (which is sending various messages to my H9) where I use the TremPan algo 2x - once in the first chorus and once in the 2nd. The LFO cycle is in sync with the BPM 100% of the time in the first chorus, but fails to sync up with the 2nd chorus 90% of the time. There has to be a reason for this behavior; there has to be something that restarts the LFO that is midi controllable. Eventide, help a brother out!

camn
Joined: Sep 19 2016
Posts: 323
February 26, 2019 - 05:55 pm

I might experiment.... What have you tried?

 

zwolf
Joined: Oct 29 2013
Posts: 37
February 26, 2019 - 09:13 pm

camn wrote:

I might experiment.... What have you tried?

 

Let's see...I've tried a few things, and none have seemed to make any consistent difference...

- alterning where the midi clip with the "activate" CC sits on the timeline, from right on the beat of where I want the LFO to start to several increments back.

- trying to see if it makes a difference if I simply activate the already loaded preset, or activate and freshly load the preset (it doesn't seem to)

- trying someone's suggestion to use the midi "tap" CC to restart the LFO

- I've noticed that for one song where the LFO is off cycle 90% of the time, If I play the song from a few bars before the part in question the LFO will work much of the time, but if I start the song from the beginning (and thus subjecting the H9 to a few midi patch changes and whatnot prior to the part in question), it doesn't.

I just can't figure it out yet. It doesn't make sense that it would work in one place 100% of the time but elsewhere not. There simply has to be some kind of proceedure or sequence of events where you can get predicitable behavior with the LFO.

T'would be nice if Eventide could chime in and shed some light on this.

camn
Joined: Sep 19 2016
Posts: 323
February 26, 2019 - 11:10 pm

OK, gimme a couple days to fool around. 

Also.. Can you screenshot your preset parameters here? 

zwolf
Joined: Oct 29 2013
Posts: 37
February 27, 2019 - 04:43 pm

camn wrote:

OK, gimme a couple days to fool around. 

Also.. Can you screenshot your preset parameters here? 

 

Hey there Camn - I sure do appreciate having someone else on this as well, thanks!

Here are a few screenshots, of the preset parameters and the ableton session:

 

 

camn
Joined: Sep 19 2016
Posts: 323
February 28, 2019 - 04:04 pm

so - I am having a hard time duplicating this behaviour. 

 

I dont use ableton, but setting up with that preset.. the panning follows my tempo perfectly.. no matter what I do with the tempo.

 

In your project.. is your TEMPO light in sync with the project throughout? Is this actually a clock issue?

 

Also.. are you monitoring through your computer..maybe there is some latency going on?

zwolf
Joined: Oct 29 2013
Posts: 37
March 01, 2019 - 05:58 pm

camn wrote:

so - I am having a hard time duplicating this behaviour. 

 

I dont use ableton, but setting up with that preset.. the panning follows my tempo perfectly.. no matter what I do with the tempo.

 

In your project.. is your TEMPO light in sync with the project throughout? Is this actually a clock issue?

 

Also.. are you monitoring through your computer..maybe there is some latency going on?

Hey there - thanks for looking into it. It's not that clock isn't working or that the tempo is out of sync; rather it's a case where the LFO of the tremolo seems to be running free and I'm trying figure out a way to reset it so that when I use the effect the cycle will begin at the moment I need it. So taking my example of Song A, the first instance I use the algorithm, everything works perfectly - the tremolo LFO cyle begins the instant I (or ableton, rather) activate the preset. But in the second chorus when I activate the preset again, the LFO is off cycle, like it started somewhere other than the starting point of the sine wave. It gives the effect an off sound and kind of makes me feel like I'm gonna fall over, but it's perfectly synced with clock. It'd go on that way forever...

So what I really want is some midi command to restart the LFO. Short of that being available - which I'm beginning to think it's not - I'd like some sort of proceedure that would guarantee the start of the LFO cycle, whatever it takes. I could send the pedal a million commands in the time between the 1st and 2nd chours. I refuse to believe that it isn't in some way possible because as I've said, the LFO is spot on 100% OF THE TIME in the first chorus. Maybe it needs to be unplugged and and smacked hard to reset it, but there's got to be a way.

I really appreciate you taking the time to dig into this. But if you're not using Ableton (or some other DAW) sending the H9 we're really talking about different use cases. I'll reiterate that it would be really nice if Eventide could comment on this!

camn
Joined: Sep 19 2016
Posts: 323
March 01, 2019 - 08:37 pm

I could hook it up to Cubase... But I ~won't~ until we really pin down your failure...

Is your tempo light in sync with your DAW... Yet the LFO is out of sync? With that preset you posted? Is that what you are saying?

Also, side note-- it might help to broaden your troubleshooting algorithm a bit if you wanna to figure this out. Probably, 70% of the time(?) that people with complicated setups have weirdness... The problem is from the complicated setup.

benriddell
Joined: Jul 3 2016
Posts: 15
March 02, 2019 - 05:01 am

zwolf wrote:

It's not that clock isn't working or that the tempo is out of sync; rather it's a case where the LFO of the tremolo seems to be running free and I'm trying figure out a way to reset it so that when I use the effect the cycle will begin at the moment I need it.

 

Just a thought (my pedalboard setup doesn't utilise MIDI yet);

does the issue still happen if you switch the unit to another non-tremolo preset between the two instances you want to use the particular preset you're talking about?

Maybe the LFO cycle continues in memory after you switch off the preset but leave it ready to activate again - meaning that it could be "out of sync" when activated later on. It might reset if you switch back to the preset, eg. Your preset > a different (non-activate) algorithm > your preset

zwolf
Joined: Oct 29 2013
Posts: 37
March 03, 2019 - 07:41 pm

camn wrote:

I could hook it up to Cubase... But I ~won't~ until we really pin down your failure... Is your tempo light in sync with your DAW... Yet the LFO is out of sync? With that preset you posted? Is that what you are saying? Also, side note-- it might help to broaden your troubleshooting algorithm a bit if you wanna to figure this out. Probably, 70% of the time(?) that people with complicated setups have weirdness... The problem is from the complicated setup.

Correct, tempo in sync, LFO out. Never had a single problem with clock sync with my setup - it's been rock solid.

 

My setup is a bit more complicated than average, but I've done a ton with it and have things running very smoothly and consistently. This is the only consistent problem I've had. But yeah, I get your point. My next step will probably be to recreate the song in question with a fresh ableton session and start with ONLY my H9 midi commands and see where that brings me. Start from the most basic and build it back up one thing at a time.

 

zwolf
Joined: Oct 29 2013
Posts: 37
March 03, 2019 - 07:43 pm

benriddell wrote:

zwolf wrote:

It's not that clock isn't working or that the tempo is out of sync; rather it's a case where the LFO of the tremolo seems to be running free and I'm trying figure out a way to reset it so that when I use the effect the cycle will begin at the moment I need it.

 

Great thought/suggestion and just the sort of brainstorming I'm looking for - thank you. Unfortunately, I have tried this and it doesn't seem to make a difference.

 

Just a thought (my pedalboard setup doesn't utilise MIDI yet);

does the issue still happen if you switch the unit to another non-tremolo preset between the two instances you want to use the particular preset you're talking about?

Maybe the LFO cycle continues in memory after you switch off the preset but leave it ready to activate again - meaning that it could be "out of sync" when activated later on. It might reset if you switch back to the preset, eg. Your preset > a different (non-activate) algorithm > your preset

camn
Joined: Sep 19 2016
Posts: 323
March 03, 2019 - 11:31 pm

That would be a good next step. Break it Down, eliminate the song... And see if it syncs to a metronome. I sometimes get weird corrupted projects in Cubase that act weird... Maybe your MIDI outs are scrambled for unknown reasons. 

When working with MIDI, I've found it helpful in the past to hook up MIDI-Ox and just check what messages are actually being sent--compare them to what I ~think~ is being sent. Sometimes there are off-channel messages or something that your H9 would pick up if set to recieve Omni... Etc. 

Also.. Can you recreate this with the H9 standing alone? Because when I was testing out that patch, it was locked, no matter what I did to the tempo. If yours syncs to tempo when it is not receiving clock, but drifts when it is... That might point you in the right direction. And if you can recreate it in place, outside of your setup... That would really help us get eyes on the problem. 

 

Also... Can we hear this? 

zwolf
Joined: Oct 29 2013
Posts: 37
March 04, 2019 - 08:06 pm

camn wrote:

That would be a good next step. Break it Down, eliminate the song... And see if it syncs to a metronome. I sometimes get weird corrupted projects in Cubase that act weird... Maybe your MIDI outs are scrambled for unknown reasons. 

When working with MIDI, I've found it helpful in the past to hook up MIDI-Ox and just check what messages are actually being sent--compare them to what I ~think~ is being sent. Sometimes there are off-channel messages or something that your H9 would pick up if set to recieve Omni... Etc. 

Also.. Can you recreate this with the H9 standing alone? Because when I was testing out that patch, it was locked, no matter what I did to the tempo. If yours syncs to tempo when it is not receiving clock, but drifts when it is... That might point you in the right direction. And if you can recreate it in place, outside of your setup... That would really help us get eyes on the problem. 

 

Also... Can we hear this? 

 

Solid ideas that I'll look into. This week is hitting hard but I'll be back in a few and yes, I'll make a recording. Cheers!