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Yes! Pitchfactor v3: Harmonizer not up to standard!

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Gerangiro
Joined: Jan 21 2011
Posts: 6

Yes! Pitchfactor v3: Harmonizer not up to standard!

Gerangiro
October 19, 2011 - 05:54 pm

I love my Pitchfactor pedal. The MicroPitch, H910/949, PitchFlex and Crystals are gorgeus.

But the main reason why I bought this pedal was the Harmonizer.

The pedal came shipped with OS version 2.3.0 (2). Wow! What a marvelous harmonizer! I could play very dynamical - soft with bends - and fast with hard attack - the pedal tracked me perfectly.

But now!? I updated the pedal to OS version 3 Beta. The update-procedure went well. All my preset was intact. And I really appreciate the naming of presets and the output-level-adjustment.

But the harmonizer-tracking is rather unpredictable. And playing soft makes it even worser. E.g. playing a single line in C major, with a +3rd harmony. The major third could become a minor third (?!) - a 5th could be a b5th. Very strange!

So I went back to 2.3.0 and the harmonizer worked like a charm again!

This was a beta, so it is forgiveable....

6 months later:

I updated to V3 (production serie) with no problems.

I was eager to test the new update. But the problem remained!!!

How on earth, can a programmed algorithm (e.g. C major) have difficulties to choose between a major third (E) and a minor third (E flat)?!

My expressionpedal (Boss EV-5) was not happy with the update either. It has trouble going back to Zero and after some minutes, it had trouble reaching 100. And the parameters on the display got crazy flipping bteween different values.

So I went back to 2.3.0 again, and the harmonizer worked like a charm again!

THIS IS VERY SERIOUS!

For me, this pedal is primary a harmonizer. So this is a serious issue!

Please! Get it as good as in version 2.3.0...

Honestly, I´m perfectly happy with 2.3.0, but it would be nice to have the ability to name the presets and adjust the output level...

(I´m worried about the fact that nobody else have reported about this, so I blame myself and try to figure out what wrong I have done.... But I can´t see anything else than the fault is in the software or hardware.)

Best wishes to You all,

from a, otherwise, happy player.

Gerangiro

(sorry for my english)

yade
Joined: Jul 9 2011
Posts: 2
yade
October 20, 2011 - 08:21 am

Hello,

Same problem for me (with Pitchfactor v3, but not tested with the 2.3.0) : 

The harmonizer is unpredictable, and can play the good 3th major (E) when I play a C in C major, but can play a 3th minor (Eb) the second time I play exactly the same...

Y

(sorry too for my english!)

Atomicunderware
Joined: Nov 23 2009
Posts: 17
Atomicunderware
October 25, 2011 - 08:23 pm

I have noticed similar issues with v3 too. The tracking, which previously was about as good as anything around, is now far more unpredictable. This really needs fixing asap. In fact there are a lot of little niggling things in all three updates, most of which are mentioned on the forum. These aren't supposed to be beta! 

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Imerkat
Joined: Sep 10 2010
Posts: 208
Imerkat (My Eventide Gear)
March 08, 2012 - 12:29 am

I just A/B'd version 3.5 and 2.3., Just on minor Third with 3ms of delay and nothing else, the tracking is substantially better in version 2.3.  just do a slow bend on the major fifth of what ever key you use and version 3.5 has this slight tremolo modulation. v2.3 does flawless job to make that metal lead minor third. i did it twice to confirm and yes you are right. 

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wedelich
Joined: Oct 20 2008
Posts: 410
wedelich
March 08, 2012 - 10:07 am

Hi imerkat,

Which algorithm are you talking about?  I would guess that it is Harmodulator or PitchFlex, because Diatonic and Quadravox do not have a minor 3rd setting.  Correct?

siriusbliss
Joined: Jan 20 2008
Posts: 44
siriusbliss
October 31, 2011 - 12:58 am

I'm seeing similar problems.

Harmonies are incorrect, or change when using the controller pedal (despite setting and saving harmonies at pedal up and down positions).

Learning chords - play a major chord, and learn the chord, and it changes to minor.
Lots of irregularities that I don't remember seeing in V2.x

There is also some weird things going on with flex that I will post separately.

Greg

siriusbliss
Joined: Jan 20 2008
Posts: 44
siriusbliss
December 25, 2011 - 11:34 pm

Well, I may have to revert back to 2.x because I'm getting endless feedback using the pedal on some patches - despite NOT setting the max feedback or mapping feedback to the pedal.

Overall on most patches, behavior is ERRATIC!

Greg

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nickrose
Joined: Jan 17 2008
Posts: 4674
nickrose
December 26, 2011 - 03:28 pm

Our best man is looking into it - he hopes to report back soon.

siriusbliss
Joined: Jan 20 2008
Posts: 44
siriusbliss
December 26, 2011 - 07:16 pm

Thank you!

Greg

siriusbliss
Joined: Jan 20 2008
Posts: 44
siriusbliss
December 27, 2011 - 12:32 pm

Just to elaborate....

Here I'm having erratic issues saving feedback levels on some patches.

Also, learning harmonies seems inconsistent - and often don't seem to save to the patch.

Harmonizers don't seem to keep interval settings.

controller pedal needs to be pushed all the way down and then back up to capture mix levels (if they're mapped as part of the controller setting on the patch)

Good luck tracking these issues down, and I hope you can recreate what some people are encountering.

Thanks again,

Greg

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wedelich
Joined: Oct 20 2008
Posts: 410
wedelich
January 09, 2012 - 04:44 pm

Hi siriusbliss,

Can you be more specific about the problems you are seeing in PF?  Which algorithms are giving you trouble saving feedback, harmonies, keys, etc?  By controller pedal, do you mean expression pedal?

If there are bugs, a step by step procedure to reproduce them (each one) would be very helpful.  

Thanks,

Russ

hywelg
Joined: Oct 6 2009
Posts: 67
hywelg
January 10, 2012 - 04:37 pm

I was just about to email support as I was convinced my pedal was borked, but I found this thread. I was just revisiting a Cmaj patch for Diatonic, with A unison and B +3rd. ( I used it for playing the second part of Bad Co Can't Get Enough Solo).

If I play C (5th str 1st fret) and E (6th open) together I get E and G# sounding. If I pluck both and then keep plucking the tope E as the C string dies away the G# drops back to G. Happens in other keys too. It seems the algorithm isn't able to distinguish the notes when two are played together. Very poor indeed.

3.0.0 beta

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wedelich
Joined: Oct 20 2008
Posts: 410
wedelich
January 10, 2012 - 06:05 pm

Hi Hywelg,

While there is small bug that we're fixing for the next relese that has to do with diatonic and the level of the guitar, what you are describing here isn't a bug, it's just what occurs when the diatonic pitchshifter has to make a decision about how to shift.   I'll explain.....

First for individual notes:

If you are shifting a 3rd up, the diatonic algorithm must decide whether or not to flat that 3rd based on the scale decree you are playing.  In the case of a C input (in the key of CMaj), it doesn't flat the 3rd to create the appropriate major 3rd interval, so it shifts to E.  In the case of E, it does flat the third to create the appropriate minor 3rd interval, so it shifts to G. 

Now for playing notes together:

We've never made the claim that diatonic is completely polyphonic.  When you play and C and E together the shifter must decide which 3rd to shift on.  It chooses the most obvious choice of the lower note, the C in your case.  Because of this the E is shifted a major third too.  But as the C energy dies out, the pitch shifter recognizes the E and then makes the correct diatonic descision for that note, the minor 3rd or G in your case.  If you always want just a major 3rd no matter what key you are in, use the Harmodulator or Pitchflex algorithms.  If this all you want, these 2 algorithms will work brilliantly.   

Does this help?

Russ  

hywelg
Joined: Oct 6 2009
Posts: 67
hywelg
January 11, 2012 - 05:05 am

No not really. I don't recall ever having this problem when I set up those patches. I've not used them for a while and had just revisited them.

Anyway. No I have already told the PF how to shift by telling it that I want a third above in the key of C Major. So it doesn't have to try any guess whether I want four or three semitones. All it has to do is recognise that there are two signal spikes on the input signal, one at 262Hz and one at 330Hz and by the rules I have told it to obey I want the 262 raising to 330 and the 330 to 392Hz. in the wet signal.

The pitch detection algorithm is obviously capable of polyphony, witness how it deals with Octaver etc. So its the application of the key scale rules that are the problem. In my original example G# is what the PF is adding to the E when the C is played first. Now having told it that I am in C:Maj how can it possibly believe that a G# is permitted given the rules that apply for that key? It knows the 8 possible notes, why on earth would it then decide to break that rule and play one from another key?

Something else I noticed. In Synthoniser, I get completely different generated notes depending on whether I play one note or two. And I mean play two individual notes, separately and then together and the results are different and largely unpredictable.

PeteApple
Joined: Feb 10 2012
Posts: 3
PeteApple
February 10, 2012 - 02:44 pm

Hai Russ, 

I just bough a Pitchfactor-harmonizer and have big problems with the diatonic mode. I'm very dissappointed 'cause it actually is the one thing I wanted it for! Had a rehersal yesterday and it made me look like a fool!

I read the threat above and it doesn;t seem  a small bug to me, the harmonizer just doesn't know what to do! it;s worthless as a harmonizer!!  It;s absolutely unreliable.

Is this problem acknowledge and will it be taken care of? Or shall I return the PF to the store?

Last but not least, it seems to be out of phase, when I set it up in a parrallel-loop setting, the sound gets very thin. It sounds like a phase-problem to me. I tried some thing with Killdry and Bypass modes, but I was pretty surprised in th e first place that this was a problem, is it because of the DSP?

Bye, Piet

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wedelich
Joined: Oct 20 2008
Posts: 410
wedelich
February 10, 2012 - 04:54 pm

Hi Piet,

Please be specific about your problems.  What specifically does it not know how to do?  What were you expecting? Etc.   Customer support might be able to help you as well, email  support@eventide.com.   

-Russ

PeteApple
Joined: Feb 10 2012
Posts: 3
PeteApple
February 10, 2012 - 09:59 pm

Hi Russ, 

It doesn't follow the scale like a harmonizer should. So far I experimented mostly with unison and 3rd up, and that 3rd is often off, not even in the scale .. I use it for single line playing, I know it won't respond properly to more notes at the same time. Of course I tried losts of things, tune my guitar in a spotless perfect pitch, play very carefull, used different cables ... but it seems to get worse and worse ...  I have an old Boss harmonizer for ten years now, because I couldn't affort a H3000 back then, but I know what I can expect from a harmonizer.

Learn-function does not learn, it sticks to a certain key and is glitchy by the look of it (shows weird letters in the screen sometimes). 

Saved programs do not remember the key they were programmed in (handy on stage!). same with tempo/delay (for the tempo I know about the global-setting and already experimented with that).

And the phase .... ? It's out of phase.

I hope I have been specific enough and I think I'm not the first one with these problems by the looks of it, so: Can you tell us if there will be an upgrade? and when? 

Thanx! Piet 

(excuse me for any poor english, it's not my first language)

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wedelich
Joined: Oct 20 2008
Posts: 410
wedelich
February 13, 2012 - 12:34 pm

Piet,

You should download the latest 3.5 beta release for Pitchfactor.  From what I'm understanding, it should fix most of your problems.  You can get the Eventide Update Utility here:

http://www.eventide.com/AudioDivision/Support/Stompboxes/PitchFactor.aspx

Once you have it installed you'll need to set up a username and password, and then you'll be able to connect and download the update to your pedal.  Contact support@eventide.com if you have any trouble updating. 

As for the parallel loop out of phase problem, well, that's too be expected.  The PF is a digital device and it will inherently add some small amount of delay.   For parallel loops we always recommend KILLDRY.   I assure you, it's nothing out the ordinary. 

-Russ

stealth
Joined: Nov 5 2010
Posts: 5
stealth
February 17, 2012 - 12:20 pm

I agree with the previous posters...I had high hopes of getting some awesome 80's style guitar harmonies out of PF, the main reason I bought it, and its been a letdown. very little useable sounds. If i didnt enjoy Crystals so much, I would have sold it....so really hoping v3.5 is a big win.

siriusbliss
Joined: Jan 20 2008
Posts: 44
siriusbliss
February 18, 2012 - 01:57 am

V 2.3 worked perfectly for me, so I hope this latest update returns the functionality that I grew accustomed to.

Nevertheless I will probably have to totally rebuild all me presets from memory, since the librarian and editor also seemed suspect this last time around.  But that's for another post.

Greg

PeteApple
Joined: Feb 10 2012
Posts: 3
PeteApple
February 18, 2012 - 09:01 am

Hi,

I installed the update and it was better, except for the learn function and (sometimes?) loading of presets. I'm afraid it's not a very reliable stompbox on stage. Quad-function sounds very thin ... not 500 worth I think .. and for a stompbox I think switching between channels/presets is not very smooth, alway a sort of cut or dip in the fx, while I use FX-Bypass ... the tail does not overlap switching from preset to preset and the 'loading' is always a bit late.

Last but not least, It's out of phase .. Eventide assured me that "that is nothing out of the ordinary", but after 20 years of playing guitar I 've never come a across a rackunit, pedal or stompbox that had latency or phase-problems .. 

I brought it back to the store .. thank God for the good service over there.

Keep up the good work Eventide! You're almost there! I'll get a Pitchfactor for sure once it is guitarist-proof ;-). For now, I'm looking around for an old H3000 for in my studio cause I really like the Eventide-sound!

byebye, Pete

siriusbliss
Joined: Jan 20 2008
Posts: 44
siriusbliss
February 26, 2012 - 08:16 pm

I installed the latest update, and so far the Harmonizer, Quad, and Synth seem to be behaving as I was used to before V3.0

However I also hear a nazal-y out-of-phase sound on many of the patches.  I don't recall hearing this before in V2.3

I'm running all my effects in parallel out to my mixing board, with all patches set at 100% mix, so I don't see why I should be hearing weirdness in the mix.

I'm NOT sequencing any other effects in series with the PF.

My Timefactor does not seem to have this issue.  I've tried simple things like swapping the output cables, but it still sounds weird.

I'll do more testing and post results.

Thanks!

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wedelich
Joined: Oct 20 2008
Posts: 410
wedelich
February 27, 2012 - 11:12 am

I'll test here, but need to know some specifics.   Which patches specifically are give you phase trouble?   Can you narrow it down to specific algorithm(s)?

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Imerkat
Joined: Sep 10 2010
Posts: 208
Imerkat (My Eventide Gear)
March 08, 2012 - 11:07 am

in Diatonic- I put it in  the key of A in the Minor scale. just choose Pitch B mix 10 (no A pitch) with 3ms delay. I went back and forwards yesterday  manually putting in this setting in each version. Bending a note slowly on v3.5 makes a slit dissonance until you get to the next note. On v2.3 sounds smooth throughout. Version 2.3 took me back to my metal days!! I was up to 1 o’clock as you can tell from my last  post Haha!! Pitchfactor is a such work of art

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wedelich
Joined: Oct 20 2008
Posts: 410
wedelich
March 08, 2012 - 03:28 pm

Hi imerkat,

I'm not able to reproduce the problem with the information you've given me.  I'm not hearing the difference b/t V2.3 and V3.5.  There is a difference b/t V2.3 and V3 though.  Will you give me a step by step description of the issue, including preset, algorithm, all knob settings, and notes played on the guitar?  Additionally, you could also make a recording of both instances and send it our way if you have time. 

rabiddiabetic13
Joined: Sep 30 2009
Posts: 109
rabiddiabetic13
March 08, 2012 - 03:32 pm

I am not well versed in the digital workings of the Pitchfactor, but is it possible being able to name presets has taken away some processing power of the Pitchfactor.  People are mentioning 2.3 was much better than any 3.x version?  Just a thought even if it is a stupid one.

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wedelich
Joined: Oct 20 2008
Posts: 410
wedelich
March 08, 2012 - 03:58 pm

Hi rabiddiabetic13 (that's quite a name!),

The audio processing is basically on a protected and high priority "thread."  So UI improvements don't really touch it.  There were bugs in V3.0 that affected tracking, shifting, and key/scale saving that had nothing to do with the added naming features.   We verified those bug reports, fixed those bugs, and tested to make sure they were gone in  V3.5. 

rabiddiabetic13
Joined: Sep 30 2009
Posts: 109
rabiddiabetic13
March 08, 2012 - 04:06 pm

Yeah not sure why I added the 13 at the end, I doubt there is another rabiddiabetic, but it describes me well Big Smile  Thanks for clearing up that theory.

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Imerkat
Joined: Sep 10 2010
Posts: 208
Imerkat (My Eventide Gear)
March 09, 2012 - 10:48 am

I will try to record something over the weekend. I just got Ableton and i feel like a fish out of water at the moment. That's all i basically did- down loaded the version and changes the knobs as stated. hopefully with the recording I'll eliminate the musician's "placebo effect"

siriusbliss
Joined: Jan 20 2008
Posts: 44
siriusbliss
March 11, 2012 - 09:37 pm

So far - further testing here....

Quadravox -

Set a new key using the learn button - save the preset, and the key is NOT remembered when recalling the preset, or even throttling the CV footpedal!

Tested this on 3 different custom Quadravox patches with the same result.  No learned key saved.

Also, didn't the learn button ALSO learn the chord at one time?  I would like to hold a simple 3-note Dmin. chord, and have it learn Dmin rather than just change i.e. GMaj to DMaj.  I realize that there a lot more modes and scales now, but I would like the presets to ALSO learn the actual chord.

Synthenizer -

I've tried two custom presets, and CANNOT get the synth to track the guitar all the time.  Sometimes it seems that the filter (or something) overpowers the synth to the point that I'm only able to hear guitar.

On some of the patches, it seems that the A/B mix is not even in volume output.

On the algos using A..B..C..D... it seems that the C and D do nothing (or are very weak in volume compared to A..B).

Still testing other algorithms...

Thanks,

Greg

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Eventide Staff
wedelich
Joined: Oct 20 2008
Posts: 410
wedelich
March 12, 2012 - 11:12 am

Hi Siriusbliss,

In reference to:

siriusbliss:

Quadravox -

Set a new key using the learn button - save the preset, and the key is NOT remembered when recalling the preset, or even throttling the CV footpedal!

This was a specific bug that was actually fixed in V3.5.  Can you verify that you are running V3.5?  Also are you using presets orginally made in V2.3 or V3?  These may not be compatible with V3.5.    I cannot replicate the erroneous behavior on my end, as my presets seem to save correctly when changed with LEARN.  Perhaps you've stumbled upon a series of events that still cause the bug?  To be certain, I need you to give me a detailed procedure starting with a factory preset that exibits this bug. 

siriusbliss:

Also, didn't the learn button ALSO learn the chord at one time?  I would like to hold a simple 3-note Dmin. chord, and have it learn Dmin rather than just change i.e. GMaj to DMaj.  I realize that there a lot more modes and scales now, but I would like the presets to ALSO learn the actual chord.

No, it didn't ever learn chords, it just learns key from the root notes.  I'll put chord learning in as a feature request, though.  

siriusbliss:

Synthenizer -

I've tried two custom presets, and CANNOT get the synth to track the guitar all the time.  Sometimes it seems that the filter (or something) overpowers the synth to the point that I'm only able to hear guitar.

Can you narrow down what's not tracking?  Please remember that this is a monophonic effect, more than 1 note played at a time might have unpredictable results. 

siriusbliss:

On some of the patches, it seems that the A/B mix is not even in volume output.

On the algos using A..B..C..D... it seems that the C and D do nothing (or are very weak in volume compared to A..B).

I'm not sure what you mean here.  Can you be more specific?  I assume you're talking about Quadravox again, so just in case, here is some pertinent inforamtion about that algorithm:

The A..B..C..D function on the Delay B knob spaces the differing voices out in the span of time determined by the Delay A knob, which sets how much delay there is before the D voice is sounded.  In addtition, each voice can be turned off.  

Thanks for testing!

siriusbliss
Joined: Jan 20 2008
Posts: 44
siriusbliss
March 17, 2012 - 08:06 pm

FIrst of all I appreciate you putting in a request for a chord-learning feature.

Shall I start a second thread for this request?

I think as a baseline - Build in ability to learn 3 or 4-note chords - with lowest note as tonic, would be a great start.  As an example, the TC Helicon Harmony GTX does a great job of tracking guitar chords (in parallel with voice)

Along with this I believe that if I learn a chord in pedal down position during performance, and learn another chord in pedal up position during performance, that for that session it should remember the LEARNED chords rather than the SAVED chords.  Is there a way to do this now?

****

Now, back to the issues -

Yes, I'm on V3.5.  Yes I wiped my old V2.3 presets and did a fresh upgrade.

Yes, I know Synthenizer is a mono effect, but I'm trying to determine if the BFLT is conflicting with the ASHP (or something).  I still lose some tracking periodically, where the synth drops out of the mix, but can't track down exactly in which circumstance - yet.

Quadrovox - I'm still on occasion having problems with it saving the learned chords - especially if at LEAST a Dmin is learned to change to G(min).  I'm hoping there is no conflict with pedal up/down commands changing in the background.  I usually just try to save a chord in full pedal up and/or down position.

***

Also, is there any way to program pan for more spread in the stereo outputs?  Or is this just an A/B setup requirement?

Thanks again,

Greg

bibg6611
Joined: Mar 21 2012
Posts: 2
bibg6611
March 21, 2012 - 12:51 pm

Hey folks,

Brand new PitchFactor owner here. Glad to realize I was not the only one to have high expectations with this pedal. My goal was also to perform 80s metal harmonies. I must say I am happy with the pedal BUT the diatonic harmonization does not track quite well for me also, and I do get the maj/min 3rd problem. My pedal's firmware is 3.0.0.19. I haven't tried the 3.5 upgrade yet. But from what I'm reading here, the 2.3 firmware was better for this kind of application, correct?

Question: can I revert to firmware 2.3.0? Can someone provide a download link? Or is this something I will see available in the manager software?

Regards,

- ben

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Eventide Staff
wedelich
Joined: Oct 20 2008
Posts: 410
wedelich
March 21, 2012 - 05:42 pm

Hi bibg6611,

You should be able to see the old V2.3 as well as the new beta V3.5 in our software called Eventide Update Utility (EUU for short).  You can download EUU on the Pitchfactor support page:

http://www.eventide.com/AudioDivision/Support/Stompboxes/PitchFactor.aspx

V3.0 did have some bugs that affected pitch-tracking in diatonic mode.  These were not in V2.3 and we've fixed them in V3.5, and verified that V3.5 is acting like V2.3.   V3.5 also fixes numerous bugs, adds a few more features including preset naming and preset output level from V3.0.  The non-beta release of V3.5 should be out shortly. 

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wilkinsi
Joined: Feb 26 2012
Posts: 323
wilkinsi
March 25, 2012 - 11:14 am

From what I've read here so far, I would actually find alternating harmony pitches useful. Perhaps the option to choose between alternating and fixed harmonies in the next update would be welcome.

bibg6611
Joined: Mar 21 2012
Posts: 2
bibg6611
March 26, 2012 - 10:19 am

Thanks Russell, will be trying the 3.5 beta tonight!

Regards,

- ben

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Eventide Staff
wedelich
Joined: Oct 20 2008
Posts: 410
wedelich
March 26, 2012 - 01:47 pm

Hi wilkinsi,

I'm pretty sure the Harmodulator algorithm already does exactly what you are describing.  It allows you to choose a ptich depth (in intervals), a modulator (sine, square, etc), and speed (Hz or note-based) by which you can modulate your A and B fixed harmonies.