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krcassid
Joined: May 28 2008
Posts: 82

Midi control of MF from TF

krcassid
April 18, 2011 - 07:30 pm

I posted a question about this awhile back but still can't quite wrap my head around it:

I have TF & MF.  I have 1 aux switch for Bank up/ Tap on TF.  I want to send PCs to both devices andd control tap for both devices from Aux switch onTF.  Is it posssible to do this?

I know I can send tempo via Midi from TF to MF.  But, if I send tempo via midi, I cannot send PC "thru",. right?

If I send PC via midi directly to MF then TF has no midi connection direct to MF to pass tap tempo, right?

Sounds like I'm caught between a rock & a hard place but I must be missing something...

Without resorting to complex midi/ merge boxes etc, can anyone explain how to send PC messages to both boxes and sync tempo from one to the other via aux switch tap?

Thx!

timothyhill
Joined: Dec 2 2010
Posts: 356
timothyhill
April 18, 2011 - 08:49 pm

Are you using a MIDI controller to send PC messages, or do you want to select programs using the TF and have the MF follow? If you are using a MIDI controller, can it transmit CC messages in addition to PC messages?

If you're not using a MIDI controller, you can set the TF up to transmit both MIDI Clock (System Mode >> MIDI >> MIDICLK OUT >> ON) and Program Change (System Mode >> MIDI >> PGM XMT >> ON).

If you're using a MIDI controller that can transmit both program change and continuous controller messages, you could use a CC message to control the tempo on both the TF & MF. That's in the System Mode >> MIDI >> RCV CTL settings. This is probably the easiest way using a MIDI controller, too.

If you are using a MIDI controller that can't or doesn't send MIDI CC messages and you want to use the TF to generate the MIDI clock messages, you'll need to add both MIDI Splitter and MIDI Merge devices. Basically, these devices either duplicate a single MIDI signal onto 2 cables or mixes 2 MIDI signals into one. This is a pretty complex setup, though, but it should do what you want. To set this up, run the output of the MIDI controller into the MIDI Splitter. Send one of the MIDI Splitter outputs to the TF and the other to the first input on the MIDI Merge. Then, connect the MIDI output from the TF to the second input on the MIDI Merge. Finally, connect the output from the MIDI Merge to the MF. The TF should be setup to transmit MIDI Clock and the MF should be setup to receive MIDI Clock (see above). Both should be set to receive Program Change. Here's how that works... the program change messages originate in the controller. The splitter allows them to be transmitted to both the TF and MF on different cables. The TF transmits clock messages, which are merged together with the output of the controller before being sent to the MF.

In any case, I hope the above makes sense. If you're curious, you can find MIDI Merge and Splitters by doing a web search. There are several companies who make them.

krcassid
Joined: May 28 2008
Posts: 82
krcassid
April 18, 2011 - 10:27 pm

Fantastic!  Thanks!

I actually do both.  When setting stuff up I typically use a controller that can transmit as many CCs as I want.  But, while in use, my ability to send CCs is limited.  However, I did not realize TF could XMT PCs.  Does it have to be same PC on same channel?  I thought there was no "midi thru" capability on multiple channels.  In other words: can TF transmit a different PC on a different channel than it is receiving?  Otherwise, they'd all have to line up: same PC o same channel on both devices..

timothyhill
Joined: Dec 2 2010
Posts: 356
timothyhill
April 18, 2011 - 11:08 pm

MIDI Thru should echo whatever MIDI comes into the TF, regardless of channel, but the TF can only be set to either MIDI OUT or MIDI THRU (TF UM p39), unfortunately, not both at the same time. The TF can transmit PCs, though (when PGM XMT is ON and OUTPUT is XMT). But, the TF doesn't transmit PC when the preset is changed via MIDI PC, only when the footswitches are used (see the "notes" at the top of TF UM p39). So, while it can transmit and receive PC on different channels, it won't do both at once.

If your MIDI controller can transmit CC messages, it may be easiest to just use your controller for both PC and 1 CC that is linked to the "tap" function on both pedals (TF UM p35-36). Either that or using the TF to transmit both PC and MIDI CLK. If you want to use both the TF and your controller to transmit at the same time, you'll need to add at least a MIDI Merge device, and likely a MIDI Splitter.

krcassid
Joined: May 28 2008
Posts: 82
krcassid
April 18, 2011 - 11:29 pm

So, unfortunately, I think we are back to  my original issue: you can't (w/o midi merge/ thru...) send both clock and (external) PC info from one to the other.  If I select Midi out to XMT Midi clock, I lose ability to send midi thru w/ PCs from controller.  If I select Midi Thru to get PC from controller, I lose midi clock from TF, right?  I've heard the midi merge/ thru solution and understand it.  But, that's what I was trying to avoid.  Sending clock via CC is not practical in my case. 

So, I guess the answer to my OP is "no".    I'd hoped that maybe something had changed but I think that's where we got to when I looked at this before.

Thx anyway!

timothyhill
Joined: Dec 2 2010
Posts: 356
timothyhill
April 19, 2011 - 12:20 am

Yeah, that sounds correct. Since the TF doesn't have a MIDI Merge function, you can't use the TF to transmit clock and another controller to transmit PC without adding a couple of external MIDI utlity devices.

You can do what you want, but you'll either need to not use your MIDI controller (which I'm kind of doubting is feasible in your rig) and use only the TF to transmit both PC and CLOCK, *or* find a way to add a CC from your pedalboard, *or* add some addtional boxes.

It's kind of like trying to hook 2 microphones into a single PA. You have to have some way of mixing the 2 mics (transmitting audio) before they enter the PA (receiving audio), basically need a mixer of some sort, and that's what a MIDI Merge does. Say you've got one mic that goes straight to the PA, but the second mike also feeds the stage monitor. To do that, you need a splitter, same with MIDI.

The idea of adding a MIDI Merge function to the Factor pedals has appeared several times. I'm not sure what doing so would technically involved, so I'm not sure if it's even feasible, but it would be nice. I'll be keeping my fingers crossed.

Anyway, I hope this at least helps makes sense of what you can do and what you can't in this situation. Please let me or anyone here on this forum if you have any more questions or would like some more information, ok? I'm sorry it wasn't exactly the answer you were looking for, but I hope it gave you a few ideas about how you could still work this into your system.

krcassid
Joined: May 28 2008
Posts: 82
krcassid
April 21, 2011 - 02:25 am

Thx for your help on this Tim.  I'm still struggling to find a solution short of midi merge/ thru boxes (which I have no room for--I have 2 full pedalboards as is).  I use a Ground Control Pro into an 8X8 midi interface to control rack gear.  It can send PCs and CCs but I have no way of translating tap tempo into a CC.  That's why I needed the TF to send tapped clock to the MF.  It just seems impossible that there is not an easy way to sync 2 factor pedals on tempo while sending independent PCs to them.  For guys using multiple factor pedals, this is pretty much required, right?  It was suggested early on that I use a "Y" cable with my Aux switch for Tap to send to both MF & TF (while enabling Midi Thru on TF to send PC to MF).  Perhaps this is the easiest/ best solution?  It sure seems easier, lest costly and less wasted space than midi merge/ thru boxes.  

The other option, If I send PCs from controller, would be to send PC to TF & midi merge box, send midi clock out of TF to Midi Merge, and send midi merge to MF.  Have I got this right?

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badmelonfarmer
Joined: Jan 26 2009
Posts: 635
badmelonfarmer
April 21, 2011 - 05:14 am
I can not see how you can do this without a MIDI Merge box and that still may be an issue if all the MIDI I have been feeling your frustration on this trying to set this up myself, without a MIDI OUT and THROUGH to merge I do not know a way of doing it other than setting the MIDI Channels to be the same, if you do this then you can set one of the Instant Access buttons on the Ground Control Pro to send MIDI CC for a value and then set the same CC Number on all the Factor Boxes for TapTempo...BUT this creates other problems and is not really practical for me and may or may not be for you.
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badmelonfarmer
Joined: Jan 26 2009
Posts: 635
badmelonfarmer
April 21, 2011 - 05:16 am
Actually what rack gear do you have? you maybe able to use that to help??
krcassid
Joined: May 28 2008
Posts: 82
krcassid
April 21, 2011 - 12:15 pm

badmelonfarmer:

I can not see how you can do this without a MIDI Merge box and that still may be an issue if all the MIDI

I have a ton of rack gear.  Some pieces generate clock via tap.  My primary EFX devices are TC G Force, Eventide H8000 & Fractal Axe Ultra.  I do have 3 Line 6 pro modelers that could also do it.  But, this is sub-optimal.  I typically use 1 pedal board w/o time based EFX when I'm using the rack gear.  My "mini rig" has the time-based EFX on a 2nd pedal board.  It seems to me that I'd be better off just using the midi merge solution.  But, it sounds like you are expressing some doubt about this working?   This was my fallback solution  if nothing else works.  Do you see an issue with this?  If no other solution my plan was to use JUST a midi merge box (don't see need for thru).  Setup would be:

Send PCs from controller to TF & midi merge box, send midi clock out of TF to Midi Merge, and send midi merge to MF.  I don't need a midi-thru and this should work,  right?

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badmelonfarmer
Joined: Jan 26 2009
Posts: 635
badmelonfarmer
April 21, 2011 - 12:26 pm
OK, I have an Axe-FX Ultra and they cannot transmit MIDI clock, they CAN receive MIDI Clock. I don't have an H8000 (one day... I hope),but I do have an Eclipse and the Eclipse DOES have MIDI clock transmit. SO not sure of your routing, but the way I am planning to do this is 7pin MIDI from GCP to Eclipse MIDI OUT and MIDI Thru to the ins of the MIDI Merge box the out from the MIDI mergebox to the IN of the Axe-FX, then THRU to Space and then chain from then. here is the MIDI diagram. don't know if that helps?? http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5150/5615598957_06f69615d3_z.jpg
krcassid
Joined: May 28 2008
Posts: 82
krcassid
April 21, 2011 - 01:24 pm

Thx.  This is not what I'm looking to do.  I could make it work but I already have my rack stuff fully configured with 2 Switchblades and time based EFX galore.  I need to find a way to make MF & TF work on their own, when I'm not dragging 400# of rack gear around.  That's why I have them.  Clearly I can  go way past what the stomps can do with my rack stuff.  H8000 + Axe Ultra render stomps unnecessary. 

So, I'm back to the top, if you can't do this w/o midi merge, can I make it work like this:

Send PCs from controller to TF & midi merge box, send midi clock out of TF to Midi Merge, and send midi merge to MF.  I don't need a midi-thru and this should work,  right?

BTW: you might not want to be so anxious for H8000.  I have both H8000 & Eclipse.  Although the H8000 is in my gig rack, I frequently ask myself why I spent the extra $4K over the Eclipse.  In the studio, for other stuff (great verbs...) it makes sense.  But, if I were buying just for my guitar rack, I think I'd stick w/. the Eclipse.  It is way more "guitar friendly".

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badmelonfarmer
Joined: Jan 26 2009
Posts: 635
badmelonfarmer
April 21, 2011 - 01:36 pm
Ok, with you now. Yes, I think that would work so the MIDI Program changes are send to the TF AND the Merge box, then OUT from the TF to the MIDI Merge box IN the out from the MIDI MERGE to the MF IN. This would Merge the MIDI PC commands of the GCP AND the Clock from TF into the MF... I would imagine that would work...though not specifically tried it myself. Thanks for the info re H8000 and Eclipse ....yes it is mainly for Guitar.
timothyhill
Joined: Dec 2 2010
Posts: 356
timothyhill
April 21, 2011 - 01:37 pm

Unless there's something I'm not aware of, it looks like you can setup the TF and MF to receive "tap tempo" information from a MIDI CC message. While it's not a clock message, per se, it should still basically synchronize the tempo on the TF & MF. I'm getting this from the TF UM pages 35-36.

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badmelonfarmer
Joined: Jan 26 2009
Posts: 635
badmelonfarmer
April 21, 2011 - 01:47 pm
Hi Tim, the issue is that you can set the Clock on the TimeFactor but then with the MF you have a choice that you can have EITHER Clock sync (by setting the TF to OUT) but then you will NOT get PC changes transmitted from the GCP. OR... you can set the TF to THRU...which will transmit the Program changes from the GCP....but will the TF will not transmit the clock out of the THRU....the only way around that I can see is to set both to the same MIDI channel and do something with MIDI maps...but it would be cumbersome.
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badmelonfarmer
Joined: Jan 26 2009
Posts: 635
badmelonfarmer
April 21, 2011 - 01:47 pm
this is the MIDI merge box I went for, seems fairly small and does not need power like the MIDISport does. http://www.midisolutions.com/prodmrg.htm
krcassid
Joined: May 28 2008
Posts: 82
krcassid
April 21, 2011 - 01:51 pm

I understand this.  If your tempos are programmed (mine are not--I actually tap them in as live tempos are rarely that exact), you could easily send via CC.  But, if your tempos are not pre-programmed, you 1st have to "tap" the tempo into a device that will send midi CC. 

I think we got off track with all the discussion of rack gear.   My desire is simple:

1.) Send PCs to both Modfactor and Timefactor

2.) Sync the 2 to the same (tapped) tempo.

From all discussion so far, it sounds like only way to do this is as I described above, using midi merge box to capture PC from controller and clock from Timefactor to send both to Modfactor.

timothyhill
Joined: Dec 2 2010
Posts: 356
timothyhill
April 21, 2011 - 01:53 pm

Oh, and yeah, it sounds like you've got the right idea with the MIDI Merge box. Most of the merge boxes I've seen are pretty small, so hopefully, you could strap it underneath your pedalboard.

Sounds like you've got quite the rig... I've recently split my pedalboard in two, as you describe, keeping all non-time-based effects on one board and all time-based effects on the other. Sounds like it's for the same reasons, too. I switch amps a lot, too, some with loops, some without, and some rackmounted, and splitting the board like that has been more flexible, too.

BTW, Badmelonfarmer, I took a look at your diagram and that makes a lot of sense. Sounds like you've got a pretty impressive rig, too.

And thanks for the input on the Eclipse vs. H8000. I've been debating that myself. Still not sure what I'll do there, though. I'm primarily a guitarist, so the Eclipse makes a lot of sense. But, I have a project studio, too (mostly local church groups and bluegrass, but some rock as well), so I can definitely see the H8000. Given my recently diagnosed addiction to and penchant for acquiring Eventide gear, I wouldn't be surprised if I end up with both, too, at least at some point.

krcassid
Joined: May 28 2008
Posts: 82
krcassid
April 21, 2011 - 01:55 pm

badmelonfarmer:

Hi Tim, the issue is that you can set the Clock on the TimeFactor but then with the MF you have a choice that you can have EITHER Clock sync (by setting the TF to OUT) but then you will NOT get PC changes transmitted from the GCP. OR... you can set the TF to THRU...which will transmit the Program changes from the GCP....but will the TF will not transmit the clock out of the THRU....the only way around that I can see is to set both to the same MIDI channel and do something with MIDI maps...but it would be cumbersome.

This is correct.  But, midi merge will do it, right?

Set TF to Midi out, XMT clk to Midi merge from TF

PCs go to TF and merge box via GCP

Clock and PC go to Modfactor from Midi Merge box.

timothyhill
Joined: Dec 2 2010
Posts: 356
timothyhill
April 21, 2011 - 02:01 pm

Badmelonfarmer, yeah, that's the problem. I was thinking there may be two ways to address it...

First idea, GCP MIDI Out (PC and CC) to TF MIDI In (receiving both PC and CC set to "tap"), TF MIDI Out (set to Thru) to MF MIDI In (all on same channel, receiving both PC and CC set to "tap"). That wouldn't involve any merge boxes, and although technically MIDI Clock isn't used, setting both pedals to use the same CC for "tap" should sync the tempos as long as the GCP is used to set them. What this won't do is reset the tempo when it's stored as part of a preset.

Second idea uses a merge box to take PC from the CGP and merge it with clock data from the TF.

timothyhill
Joined: Dec 2 2010
Posts: 356
timothyhill
April 21, 2011 - 02:04 pm

Yeah, that's the merge box I've been looking at, too. Nice and small, no external power, easy to incorporate.

krcassid
Joined: May 28 2008
Posts: 82
krcassid
April 21, 2011 - 02:08 pm

The split pedal board is huge.  I have a Wet/ Dry/ Wet rig with stereo EFX going to the wet cabs and dry (Pedal board one w/ compression/ drive etc) always going dry to middle amp.  Like you, I switch amps a lot.  I have multiple preamps/ power and several combos.  The key for me is that I always have to have that dry signal.  I want to always hear my amp's tone w/o EFX and mix EFX as necessary in wet cabs.  This is easy on the rack side using multiple Switchblades.  But, the pedals get tricky.  You have to keep time-based efx separate and run dry to dry amp from board 1.  If you haven't tried a setup like this, and can, I highly recommend it.  This was the end result of many years of trying every other scheme and I'm really happy with it.  Everything else I tried (parallel EFX loops, Wet/ Dry...) introduced phase issues.

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badmelonfarmer
Joined: Jan 26 2009
Posts: 635
badmelonfarmer
April 21, 2011 - 02:13 pm
krcassid"]

[quote user="badmelonfarmer:

Hi Tim, the issue is that you can set the Clock on the TimeFactor but then with the MF you have a choice that you can have EITHER Clock sync (by setting the TF to OUT) but then you will NOT get PC changes transmitted from the GCP. OR... you can set the TF to THRU...which will transmit the Program changes from the GCP....but will the TF will not transmit the clock out of the THRU....the only way around that I can see is to set both to the same MIDI channel and do something with MIDI maps...but it would be cumbersome.

This is correct.  But, midi merge will do it, right?

Set TF to Midi out, XMT clk to Midi merge from TF

PCs go to TF and merge box via GCP

Clock and PC go to Modfactor from Midi Merge box.

yes, that would be my choice
timothyhill
Joined: Dec 2 2010
Posts: 356
timothyhill
April 21, 2011 - 02:15 pm
krcassid:

I understand this.  If your tempos are programmed (mine are not--I actually tap them in as live tempos are rarely that exact), you could easily send via CC.  But, if your tempos are not pre-programmed, you 1st have to "tap" the tempo into a device that will send midi CC. 

Actually, I think it may be opposite of this. If your tempos are programmed, MIDI Clock would transmit the change when a program change occurs, but CC wouldn't. You're right about having to tap the tempos in via CC, though.

However, since it seems you're wanting to tap the tempo anyway, as makes perfect sense in live situations, if you use one of the instant access switches on the GCP to do so, you can set both the TF and MF to use that CC as the "tap" switch. That doesn't use MIDI Clock, but it doesn't require merging MIDI, either. In the above scenario, you could run the TF MIDI Out as Thru and the PC and CC messages, which would both originate in the GCP, would simply be passed along to the MF.

timothyhill
Joined: Dec 2 2010
Posts: 356
timothyhill
April 21, 2011 - 02:18 pm
badmelonfarmer:

yes, that would be my choice

I agree.... Of course, using a MIDI merge as described would work, and may prove to be the better solution. I'm not meaning to confuse things here, just that there may be another option.

timothyhill
Joined: Dec 2 2010
Posts: 356
timothyhill
April 21, 2011 - 02:22 pm

krcassid:

If you haven't tried a setup like this, and can, I highly recommend it.  This was the end result of many years of trying every other scheme and I'm really happy with it.  Everything else I tried (parallel EFX loops, Wet/ Dry...) introduced phase issues.

I absolutely agree! That's exactly why I'm running my setup that way. It can get a little cumbursome at times, but the sound quality and flexibility is absolutely worth it!!

krcassid
Joined: May 28 2008
Posts: 82
krcassid
April 21, 2011 - 02:35 pm

timothyhill:

However, since it seems you're wanting to tap the tempo anyway, as makes perfect sense in live situations, if you use one of the instant access switches on the GCP to do so, you can set both the TF and MF to use that CC as the "tap" switch. That doesn't use MIDI Clock, but it doesn't require merging MIDI, either. In the above scenario, you could run the TF MIDI Out as Thru and the PC and CC messages, which would both originate in the GCP, would simply be passed along to the MF.
s

OK.  You can put the "stupid" stamp on my forehead!  I hadn't even considered using GCP for Tap via instant access button!  It means giving up 10 presets/ bank but I think this will be worth it given the ability to centralize tap in one device via CC.

I'm just recovering from several years of "Axediction" where I had been using MFC with Axe Ultra as the core controller.  Now, GCP is the central controller and MFC controls only Axe functions.  So, I am still working out all the midi implications.  I was making this WAY more complicated than I had to.

Thx Tim!  Sometimes, you really need somebody who hasn't got their mind stuck to show you the obvious.  I think using tap on GCP changes my whole flow and will make everything easier. It is the obvious solution.  I just didn't even consider it!

timothyhill
Joined: Dec 2 2010
Posts: 356
timothyhill
April 21, 2011 - 02:50 pm

Thanks! I'm not sure that it will work quite as well as using a merge box, but it's simpler. I think, though, that even if CC doesn't get the tempos quite as locked as MIDI Clock would, it should be close enough for live work. I really appreciate Badmelonfarmer's input on this one, too!

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badmelonfarmer
Joined: Jan 26 2009
Posts: 635
badmelonfarmer
April 21, 2011 - 02:55 pm
krcassid"]

[quote user="timothyhill:

However, since it seems you're wanting to tap the tempo anyway, as makes perfect sense in live situations, if you use one of the instant access switches on the GCP to do so, you can set both the TF and MF to use that CC as the "tap" switch. That doesn't use MIDI Clock, but it doesn't require merging MIDI, either. In the above scenario, you could run the TF MIDI Out as Thru and the PC and CC messages, which would both originate in the GCP, would simply be passed along to the MF.
s

OK.  You can put the "stupid" stamp on my forehead!  I hadn't even considered using GCP for Tap via instant access button!  It means giving up 10 presets/ bank but I think this will be worth it given the ability to centralize tap in one device via CC.

I'm just recovering from several years of "Axediction" where I had been using MFC with Axe Ultra as the core controller.  Now, GCP is the central controller and MFC controls only Axe functions.  So, I am still working out all the midi implications.  I was making this WAY more complicated than I had to.

Thx Tim!  Sometimes, you really need somebody who hasn't got their mind stuck to show you the obvious.  I think using tap on GCP changes my whole flow and will make everything easier. It is the obvious solution.  I just didn't even consider it!

Yes thats what I was on about earlier in the thread, set the GCP to 4 Banks and one of the IA switches to a momentary CC number... set that on the TF to listen to the CC number for Tap Tempo...job done... I did do this for a while and it works well, but you still have the issues of merging the Program Changes an clock out....sorry if I was not clear when I explained it
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badmelonfarmer
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badmelonfarmer
April 21, 2011 - 02:59 pm
Hi Tim ... Martin here :-) you still, need the Merge, even if you set the TF Clock via MIDI CC and output it From the TF to MF...you would loose the PC changes from the GCP to the MF or vice versa.... back to the same problem. Cheers Martin
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badmelonfarmer
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badmelonfarmer
April 21, 2011 - 03:08 pm
timothyhill:

Badmelonfarmer, yeah, that's the problem. I was thinking there may be two ways to address it...

First idea, GCP MIDI Out (PC and CC) to TF MIDI In (receiving both PC and CC set to "tap"), TF MIDI Out (set to Thru) to MF MIDI In (all on same channel, receiving both PC and CC set to "tap"). That wouldn't involve any merge boxes, and although technically MIDI Clock isn't used, setting both pedals to use the same CC for "tap" should sync the tempos as long as the GCP is used to set them. What this won't do is reset the tempo when it's stored as part of a preset.

Second idea uses a merge box to take PC from the CGP and merge it with clock data from the TF.

Hi Tim, This would not work, as unfortunately I don't think you can set the IA switches to send CC's on different channels... you can with Program changes, but not CC. I thought about doing that when I was trying to setup the Axe-Fx and TimeFactor....but it is not possible on the GCP.... maybe on other MIDI controllers though....oh and I feel ya re your Eventide addiction! LOL Cheers Martin
krcassid
Joined: May 28 2008
Posts: 82
krcassid
April 21, 2011 - 03:24 pm
badmelonfarmer"][quote user="timothyhill:

 the TF.

Hi Tim, This would not work, as unfortunately I don't think you can set the IA switches to send CC's on different channels... you can with Program changes, but not CC. I thought about doing that when I was trying to setup the Axe-Fx and TimeFactor....but it is not possible on the GCP.... maybe on other MIDI controllers though....oh and I feel ya re your Eventide addiction! LOL Cheers Martin

Bummer!   So, I can't use GCP to set master tempo to multiple devices on different channels?

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badmelonfarmer
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badmelonfarmer
April 21, 2011 - 03:30 pm
krcassid"]badmelonfarmer:
[quote user="timothyhill:

 the TF.

Hi Tim, This would not work, as unfortunately I don't think you can set the IA switches to send CC's on different channels... you can with Program changes, but not CC. I thought about doing that when I was trying to setup the Axe-Fx and TimeFactor....but it is not possible on the GCP.... maybe on other MIDI controllers though....oh and I feel ya re your Eventide addiction! LOL Cheers Martin

Bummer!   So, I can't use GCP to set master tempo to multiple devices on different channels?

Correct, you have to set the tempo on the Source (TF) and slave off it (MF). IA CC's are a single MIDI Channel on the GCP...PC can be multiple channels.....let me check again.....bear with me....
timothyhill
Joined: Dec 2 2010
Posts: 356
timothyhill
April 21, 2011 - 03:41 pm

Why would you need to send CCs on different channels? I mean, I could easily be missing something here, but both the TF and MF can receive on the same channel, which would be necessary to use one CC switch as the "tap" destination for both devices. You would lose the ability to address each pedal individually, but that may not be necessary, depending on your needs.

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badmelonfarmer
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badmelonfarmer
April 21, 2011 - 03:54 pm

OK, just checked and you cannot send multiple CC's to different MIDI Channels.

Tim - you could set the MIDI Channels to be the same and set the same MIDI CC for TapTempo on both TF and MF....BUT...you would have to be careful setting the MIDI mappings for PC to Preset Banks...it could get very complicated very quickly and you could loose a lot of flexibility that keeping the devices on separate channels brings.... IMHO.

Cheers

Martin

timothyhill
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Posts: 356
timothyhill
April 21, 2011 - 04:04 pm

Badmelonfarmer, yeah, I completely agree. Using maps can get confusing quickly and it's not as flexible, both very valid points. Transmitting CC and PC on one channel would still work, though, right?

At least we have the new version of FactorLib that works with V3.16. It might be easier to use that as an alternative to the maps to just rearrange (or copy) the presets as needed. It would give you a visual representation of what's where, rearranging is basically drag-and-drop, it would allow you to keep the maps at their one-to-one defaults (PC 10 = Preset 10), and it allows for creating and storing as many presets as you need with 100 being in the pedal at any given time and the rest saved to the computer.

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badmelonfarmer
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badmelonfarmer
April 21, 2011 - 04:23 pm
Hey Tim,

Yeah, I think it will work, not tried it in anger, but should work

Cheers

Martin

timothyhill
Joined: Dec 2 2010
Posts: 356
timothyhill
April 21, 2011 - 04:42 pm

Hey, Martin!

LOL! Yeah, this MIDI stuff gets confusing and irritating... and it seems there's always one more way to do it, one more thing that I forgot, and about a thousand things I don't know (and probably ten thousand I'm not even aware of not knowing).

krcassid
Joined: May 28 2008
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krcassid
April 21, 2011 - 04:45 pm

I have a feeling there is a way to make this work and we are close.  For me, the compromise of setting same channel on both devices is too big.  I can't reprogram continuously.  IE: I have 7-10 main presets I use on both boxes.  But, I use them in multiple combos and I want to have that flexibility w/o reprogramming.  I am (basically) a "midiot".  But, I know a few gurus.  I'll check further.  Also, for me, midi merge may still be superior solution, even better if sending tempo to one pedal from GCP.

So, to clarify (pardon me if this was already answered), could you:

1.) Send Tempo and PC to  TF from GCP on 1 channel. 

2.) Send PC (on different channel) from GCP to Midi Merge box

3.) Send tempo (no PC) from TF to Midi Merge box  on same channel as (2)

4.) Send Tempo & PC to MF from Midi Merge?

I have a sinking feeling that TF would not transmit clock on a different channel than received but I figured it was wort a shot.

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badmelonfarmer
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badmelonfarmer
April 21, 2011 - 04:54 pm
Hey Tim,

totally, MIDI is a well frustrating thing.... there is many different ways to do things ... I am always learning from others, it's whats great about these Forums...always a helping hand to show me that there is a better way to do things....always happy to learn

Cheers

Martin

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badmelonfarmer
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badmelonfarmer
April 21, 2011 - 05:15 pm
krcassid:

I have a feeling there is a way to make this work and we are close.  For me, the compromise of setting same channel on both devices is too big.  I can't reprogram continuously.  IE: I have 7-10 main presets I use on both boxes.  But, I use them in multiple combos and I want to have that flexibility w/o reprogramming.  I am (basically) a "midiot".  But, I know a few gurus.  I'll check further.  Also, for me, midi merge may still be superior solution, even better if sending tempo to one pedal from GCP.

So, to clarify (pardon me if this was already answered), could you:

1.) Send Tempo and PC to  TF from GCP on 1 channel. 

2.) Send PC (on different channel) from GCP to Midi Merge box

3.) Send tempo (no PC) from TF to Midi Merge box  on same channel as (2)

4.) Send Tempo & PC to MF from Midi Merge?

I have a sinking feeling that TF would not transmit clock on a different channel than received but I figured it was wort a shot.

Don't think that will work, let me draw it in a diagram to achieve what I think you are trying to do...

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badmelonfarmer
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badmelonfarmer
April 21, 2011 - 06:09 pm

Here we go, this is how I think you want it...

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5185/5641261489_e9c1da8fe8_z.jpg

it got a little more complicated when I drew it out as you need to split the MIDI from the GCP to allow the PC and CC to get to the TF (to set the TapTempo) then you only set the MIDI Clock out of the TF.... so you need to merge the feeds from the GCP and the TF to get the ALL MIDI (PC, CC and Clock) to the ModFactor.... it gets easier then as it is just THRUs all the way out of the ModFactor and other devices.

I am no MIDI expert, just what I have been learning so you might want to check it out....but I am pretty sure I am right....happy to be proven wrong and learn....but this is what I have picked up so far with my MID frustrations.

Cheers

Martin

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badmelonfarmer
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badmelonfarmer
April 21, 2011 - 06:14 pm

this looks like the sort of thing you would need to "split" the MIDI from the GCP to the Merge and TimeFactor

http://www.midisolutions.com/prodthr.htm

(no affiliation to this company)

I would guess that a 5Pin DIN Y Cable would do the same thing if you could find one / build one.

Cheers

Martin

timothyhill
Joined: Dec 2 2010
Posts: 356
timothyhill
April 21, 2011 - 06:35 pm

I'm not sure if it really matters if the TF transmits Clock on the same channel it receives PC because it's not transmitting PC, only Clock, and the MF could be set to receive Omni. So...

GCP transmits PC on channels 1 (for TF) and 2 (for MF)...

TF receives channel 1 and transmits clock on channel 1...

MF receives Omni, and therefore PC on channel 2 and clock on 1.

Also, since there are separate settings in both TF and MF for transmit channel and receive channel, it would seem that both are capable of transmitting on different channels than what they are receiving. So...

GCP transmits PC on channels 1 (for TF) and 2 (for MF)...

TF receives channel 1 and transmits clock on channel 2...

MF receives both PC and Clock on channel 2.

Either way, the results are the same. Of course, the specific channels used would depend somewhat on what other devices are receiving MIDI.

krcassid:

1.) Send Tempo and PC to TF from GCP on 1 channel.

2.) Send PC (on different channel) from GCP to Midi Merge box

3.) Send tempo (no PC) from TF to Midi Merge box on same channel as (2)

4.) Send Tempo & PC to MF from Midi Merge?

1) Yep, sending PC and CC from GCP and setting TF to use the CC as the "tap" source. From Martin's posts, it sounds like you can program the GCP to send PC on multiple channels. CC just needs to be on the same channel that the TF is receiving. The MF would be set to the other channel on which the GCP is transmitting PC.

2) Yep, but you'll need a way to split the MIDI signal from the GCP to both the TF and the merge box.

3) You're right... since the TF doesn't re-transmit PC when received via MIDI, it's only transmitting clock.

4) Yep, the output of the merge would come from both the GCP and the clock that the TF's transmitting.

I'm sure this will make a lot more sense in a diagram. Thanks, Martin, I'll be looking forward to seeing that.

krcassid
Joined: May 28 2008
Posts: 82
krcassid
April 21, 2011 - 06:36 pm

Thanks!  This is not exactly what I had in  mind.  I was hoping that I could avoid the splitter by sending to Misdisport 8 X 8 in my rack (which distributes all my midi).  So, it would look like attached.  Big ? is whether TF can be set to XMT Midi clock on different channel than it receives???

timothyhill
Joined: Dec 2 2010
Posts: 356
timothyhill
April 21, 2011 - 06:44 pm

Martin, yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking. That's the splitter I was thinking of, too. So, who knows, but maybe, just maybe, between the 3 of us (so far), we'll come up with a solution that works! Seriously, though, I agree, I'm no expert, either, but I've certainly learned a lot on this forum and a lot just from this thread! Thanks!!

timothyhill
Joined: Dec 2 2010
Posts: 356
timothyhill
April 21, 2011 - 06:54 pm

I think the Midisport 8x8 should work, from what I get out of the UM, it may work for the merge, too, if you have enough ports. Something about "patchbay" mode...

I think the TF can transmit on a different channel than it receives. There are settings for both (TF UM p35), so it should work that way.

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badmelonfarmer
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badmelonfarmer
April 21, 2011 - 07:11 pm

Hey Tim,

yeah, enjoying this discussion / puzzle......we will get there and we will have all learned something along the way.Beer 

But I thought the Rack gear was out of bounds?? and we had to solve the puzzle with just:-

Ground Control Pro, TimeFactor and ModFactor

Cheers

Martin

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badmelonfarmer
April 21, 2011 - 07:22 pm
timothyhill:

I'm not sure if it really matters if the TF transmits Clock on the same channel it receives PC because it's not transmitting PC, only Clock, and the MF could be set to receive Omni. So...

From experience MIDI Clock is not connected to MIDI Channels ... MID clock is global (from my experience)

So it does not matter if you transmit or receive on channel 1 or 2 ..if set to listen for MIDI clock you will be in sync.

In my set up... The GCP sends "logically" MIDI PC to CH1(Axe-FX), CH2 (Eclipse), CH3 (Space).

But "physically" the setup it CGP> Eclipse>(MIDI MERGE)>Axe-FX>Space

The PC and CC source is supplied by the GCP to all of the devices and then the Eclipse supplies the MIDI Clock back into the MIDI Merge box and then onto the rest of the devices.

Cheers

Martin

krcassid
Joined: May 28 2008
Posts: 82
krcassid
April 21, 2011 - 07:23 pm

Rack gear was out of bounds.  However, I can use same concept with smaller Midisport (I have 2x2 & 4x4).  They can be stuck just about any place.

On midisports, you have to connect to PC to use patch bay mode.  So, I just use Thru.  Whatever goes into 1 comes out all 8.  So, info is distributed via assigned channels.  But, this also means you can't use Omni on devices.  You must manage your channels.  This is true of all midisports.  I use a 4X 4 to run Axe Edit, Triaxis Editor, FactorLib and Swtchblade GUIs.

So, for me, this looks like the perfect solution.  I wouldn't need a splitter, just a merge box.  This solves the TF/MF challenge.  But, now that you've suggested setting tempo on GCP, I'm hooked. I need to come up with a way to make that work for other devices too.   I want tempo to be universal.  So, I am thinking that I now need one more step: a way to "distribute" tempo CC from GCP to all channels on 8x8, 4X4, 2x2...

I'm thinking: Run midi from GCP into something that will XMT Omni, then to Midisport so every channel gets tempo.  I'm not sure if this is possible.  But,obviously, we all have multiple devices that require clock/ tap tempo.  I have at least 6.  It would be excellent to have one source (IE GCP) of tap for all so I don't have all these tap sources.  Most devices can accommodate this w/ midi thru.  That may suffice if set up correctly.

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badmelonfarmer
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badmelonfarmer
April 21, 2011 - 07:32 pm
krcassid:

Thanks!  This is not exactly what I had in  mind.  I was hoping that I could avoid the splitter by sending to Misdisport 8 X 8 in my rack (which distributes all my midi).  So, it would look like attached.  Big ? is whether TF can be set to XMT Midi clock on different channel than it receives???

YES! Big Smile more or less ....(semantics ...... but basically the 8x8 is a dumb device and just splits the signal (from what I know) so it does not know  what is CH1 or CH2 etc so it will send all data to all ports)....BUT it should work from what you have said, sorry I thought thr 8x8 and other MIDI stuff was not an option.... it there is other MIDI stuff that is int he chain then you might be able to slave the clock off that,hence my question about what other MIDI stuff you have.

We are getting there... I feels it !Big Smile

Cheers

Martin