Help – Trying to mimic a step-filter flanging effect

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    • #114333
      dneilsen
      Member

      Hi All

      I have an effect that I created using a step filter in cubase and I would really like to replicate this live using the H9.

      The original effect is a distortion + a step filter.  I am just after the step filter effect, the distortion will be handled with another pedal

      The step filter settings were 1/16 steps with the cutoff gradually increasing each step and the resonance gradular decreasing, both in a linear fashion.

      Sound sample of the bass with effect   

      https://www.dropbox.com/s/8xaurjia2u4myql/Bass%20FX%20-%20Bass%20FX%201.mp3?dl=0

       

      I have tried a bunch of options but cannot seem to get something that will work.

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      Harpeggiator does not work at all because it grabs on to the highlight notes in the riffs as well as the root note so it goes all over the place.

      Other algorithms I have tried without success are Q-Wah, Resonator, Mod Delay, Mod Echo Verb but I am a very new H9 user so I am jsut kinda feeling my way here.

       

      My setup has my H9 being midi controlled from a Boss ES-5 but no other modulation pedals on my board.

      (I mention this as there maybe some way to do something with automated midi CC events to control the H9 from the Boss-ES5?)

       

       

      I am really hoping someone can make a suggestion of how to get something close.

       

       

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    • #147050
      brock
      Participant
      dneilsen wrote:
      … I have tried a bunch of options but cannot seem to get something that will work.

      Harpeggiator does not work at all because it grabs on to the highlight notes in the riffs as well as the root note so it goes all over the place.

      Other algorithms I have tried without success are Q-Wah, Resonator, Mod Delay, Mod Echo Verb but I am a very new H9 user so I am jsut kinda feeling my way here …

      You might want to check out the Octaver (for the sound itself; not the entire process).  It’s your best option for control over cutoff & deep resonance, + optional fuzz, but 1 & 2 octaves down from unison.  I’ve posted some step options here in the past.  They won’t get you exactly there, but might open up some routes to explore.

      dneilsen wrote:
      … My setup has my H9 being midi controlled from a Boss ES-5 but no other modulation pedals on my board.

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      (I mention this as there maybe some way to do something with automated midi CC events to control the H9 from the Boss-ES5?) …

      I don’t know the ES-5, but you’ll need automated LFO-type control with either MIDI CCs, or an ‘automated’ expression pedal.  Something like a Lexicon MPX-1 can provide the first option, and an EHX 8 Step Program or Source Audio Reflex can provide the 2nd.  There are others (including keyboard options), but these are the ones that I use most often.  I’m going to say that any of them can reconstruct that sound sequence exactly.

      If you don’t mind manually pumping an expression pedal (very smoothly), that could be one cheap way out.

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      • #147059
        dneilsen
        Member
        brock wrote:

        You might want to check out the Octaver (for the sound itself; not the entire process).  It’s your best option for control over cutoff & deep resonance, + optional fuzz, but 1 & 2 octaves down from unison.  I’ve posted some step options here in the past.  They won’t get you exactly there, but might open up some routes to explore.

         

        Ill check out the octaver.

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        I did check out your step filter effecst and quite a few were very good.  

        None really had that flanging feel to them though (that you can hear in that sample I posted)

         

        brock wrote:

        I don’t know the ES-5, but you’ll need automated LFO-type control with either MIDI CCs, or an ‘automated’ expression pedal.  Something like a Lexicon MPX-1 can provide the first option, and an EHX 8 Step Program or Source Audio Reflex can provide the 2nd.  There are others (including keyboard options), but these are the ones that I use most often.  I’m going to say that any of them can reconstruct that sound sequence exactly.

         

        The boss es-5 has an automated virtual expression pedal which I can program to send midi CCs to the H9.

         

        Can you point me towards which algorithm might be the best to achieve what I am after?

         

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      • #147075
        brock
        Participant
        dneilsen wrote:
        … The boss es-5 has an automated virtual expression pedal which I can program to send midi CCs to the H9.

        I’d forgotten just how powerful that controller was.  That triggered-type expression is something that I’ve feature-requested for the H9.  Close to perfect for this kind of preset, controlled over MIDI.

        Too bad it only transmits On / Off out the EXT CTL jacks.  The H9’s expression inputs handle incoming data a bit more smoothly (understandably so), and there are a few more routes for per-preset variations.

        If you can give me until the weekend, I’d like to put together some options for you.  When I listened to the clip on some “real” speakers, it gave me a few more ideas (like pulling it off in-preset, without external MIDI).  I’d also like to compare expression pedal control against a similar waveform over MIDI.

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        As it stands right now, I’m still thinking the Octaver algorithm.  I’ve gotten some unique results from that set of ‘squawky’ resonant filters.  Here’s a ‘handwritten’ example, from more than 4 years back:

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    • #147080
      dneilsen
      Member

      I had a play around with the boss es5 and the h9 and got a couple of results that were getting closer with the phaser and the flange algorithm.

      I set the es5 to send a continous ramping cc value from 0 to 127 on midi cc 3 every bar and set my h9 to think that midi cc 3 is the expression pedal.

      i then used to continually change the modulation options on the phaser/ flange algorithms.  They didn’t really have the step feel to them though. 

      I’d love to hear what options you can come up with.  

      Just know that the opt-in is there too have an automated expression pedal input.   🙂

       

      • #147128
        brock
        Participant

        Thanks, guys.  I still have intermittent power / mains, so here’s what I had, before all the rude interruptions:

        dneilsen wrote:

        I had a play around with the boss es5 and the h9 and got a couple of results that were getting closer with the phaser and the flange algorithm.

        Not my first choice for this, and not because these won’t act like ‘filters’ with ‘resonance’.  It’s just a different approach with a characteristic sound … a little more ‘alien’ & ‘vocal’, for lack of better terms.  Put it this way: they’re not LP4 resonant filters.  And yet, that’s where you got pleasing results, so I started there as well.

        dneilsen wrote:
        I set the es5 to send a continous ramping cc value from 0 to 127 on midi cc 3 every bar and set my h9 to think that midi cc 3 is the expression pedal.

        Good start.  Using the expression pedal mapping as a destination, a single source controls multiple parameters in different directions.  Save it all per-preset.  The automated ramp might be a little too smooth …

        dneilsen wrote:
        i then used to continually change the modulation options on the phaser/ flange algorithms.  They didn’t really have the step feel to them though.
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        In my setup, I have the option to coarsen or smooth out the waveforms; whether over MIDI, or auto-expression input options.  Here’s what (I assume) you’re sending over MIDI:

        And here’s a represention of what a quantized ramp waveform might present:

        I can think of a way to process your automated ramp externally [event processor].  Easily done, but more hardware required.  Right now,  you’re counting on the smooth ramp to provide double-duty (increase the expression / cutoff, and break it up into discrete steps}.,  So, we have to figure out a way to split that up.

        dneilsen wrote:
        I’d love to hear what options you can come up with.

        I’m not too happy with them as a finished product, but this is as far as I got.  I used internal modulation for the sequencer steps, and increased ‘cutoff’ while decreasing ‘resonance’ with the expression pedal target.  On the presets that were not sync’ed to MIDI Clock [Tempo=OFF], I set the SPEED to around 6.0 Hz.

         

         And – of course – that led to unrelated experiments in wild multi-modulation:

        dneilsen wrote:
        Just know that the opt-in is there too have an automated expression pedal input.   🙂

        Quick question:  Can you use both the expression pedal “thru” and the automated output from the ES-5 at the same time?  I assume that you’re using the Wave option.  My thought was that – instead of using a Ramp output – you could use a Square Wave to provide the steps.  The smooth ramp up would have to come from elsewhere.

        Those were my initial ideas.  I still have a lot to try out, using the other algorithms.

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      • #147131
        dneilsen
        Member
        brock wrote:
         

        Here’s what (I assume) you’re sending over MIDI:

        yup. That’s pretty much it.   I can also use a sine, triangular or square wave form as well to generate the midi change

         

        brock wrote:
        Quick question:  Can you use both the expression pedal “thru” and the automated output from the ES-5 at the same time?  I assume that you’re using the Wave option.  My thought was that – instead of using a Ramp output – you could use a Square Wave to provide the steps.  The smooth ramp up would have to come from elsewhere.

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        Those were my initial ideas.  I still have a lot to try out, using the other algorithms.

        If i move my manual expression pedal its change does register but it is immediately overridden by the midi expression pedal signal.

        but…  i just had a thought

        The boss es5 can send up to 8 midi signals per patch so i am not limited in that regard and i have noticed that the controls in h9 control can be bongs to the expression pedal or A B and C controls. 

        I wonder if i can send a midi control to automate A B and C?

        If so in theory i could have 4 automated control sets

         

        Thanks for the patches above.   Ill try them out today.   Ill also test if i can Bind to A B C and let you know. 

        Stay safe with the hurricane mate. 

        We are getting some coverage here and it is not pretty.   

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    • #147114
      dneilsen
      Member

      Hi Brock

      did you come up with any suggestions? 

      • #147115
        brock
        Participant
        dneilsen wrote:

        Hi Brock

        did you come up with any suggestions? 

        Well, I started to.  But I have to re-prioritize for “Irma” now (I’m in deep South Florida).

      • #147117
        gkellum
        Member
        brock wrote:

        Well, I started to.  But I have to re-prioritize for "Irma" now (I'm in deep South Florida).

        Wow, good luck.  I'll keep my fingers crossed that it veers away from Florida…

      • #147118
        dneilsen
        Member
        brock wrote:

        Well, I started to.  But I have to re-prioritize for “Irma” now (I’m in deep South Florida).

        I’m in a cyclone area here in Australia so i have a fair idea what your ate dealing with. 

        Stay safe mate

         

    • #147132
      dneilsen
      Member

      So i went investigating as to what is possible. 

      Turns out that every parameter can be individually controlled via midi separately. 

      Since the es5 can send 8 separate midi commands at a time, and each of those commands can be a ongoing wav midi adjustment then it would seem that the sky is the limit. 

      To be clear. 

      I can control 8 parameters and each can be can be controlled by a ramping,  sine,  triangular or square wave where i can set the max and min values and the speed of the wav.  Speed of the wav can either be set in ms or in note lengths to suit the bpm.   Ie quavers, etc

      Ie.  Assume you have 8 separate expression pedals operating at once

      ps.  Loving this h9/es5 combo more and more.   Powerful combo. 

    • #147133
      brock
      Participant

      If you have 8 CCs avaialble, you might want to bind them to the parameters directly (Parameter 1-10, or KB0 – KB9; depending on the device).  Two things to note:  Those direct assignments are global, and will affect every preset / algorithm differently.  And second, there’s a limit to how much continuous data the H9 will take, before it starts freaking out.  Dropped information, display goes crazy, etc.  It’s a lot to process simultaneously.

      Here’s the general path that I was after, using multi-modulation.  ModFilter this time.  I’m still not satisfied with the results, but they illustrate the direction that I’m taking with it.  This first preset is “all-in-one”.  No expression pedal mapping.  The internal Ramp climbs up the Square steps:

      But if you want to use the automated expression signal [to better result, I think], drop out & neutralize all of the bottom row parameters.  Map the Intensity parameter from ~10 through ~90 as a “cutoff”, then hit it with the Ramp from the ES-5.  Still not perfect, but getting closer.

      • #147134
        dneilsen
        Member
        brock wrote:

        Two things to note:  Those direct assignments are global, and will affect every preset / algorithm differently.  And second, there’s a limit to how much continuous data the H9 will take, before it starts freaking out.  Dropped information, display goes crazy, etc.  It’s a lot to process simultaneously.

        Re the global settings.

        Yes they are global settings on the H9 but on my ES5 I can determine whether to send that data on a per patch basis.

        For example.   I can load patch 143 and it will send:

        – a midi PC to change to the patch on the H9

        – Sync the H9 midi clock to the ES5 BPM setting

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        – And then send whatever CC messages I want, continuous or singular.

         

        Re Freak out.

        Yeah, I have found if I am sending continuous cc midi other midi can often be dropped.   (ie.  I need to do the PC before I start doing any CC events)

         

        Ill give those modfilters presets a go.

        I have been messing with the resonator algorithm with constantly changing the resonance and all 4 notes.  It also seems to achieve a result that is getting relatively close, but certainly not perfect….  yet

         

         

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      • #147154
        brock
        Participant

        So this is what it’s like with an Internet connection.  I haven’t made any further progress – infrastructure damage and all  –  but this last part of your experimentation caught my eye:

        dneilsen wrote:
        …  have been messing with the resonator algorithm with constantly changing the resonance and all 4 notes.  It also seems to achieve a result that is getting relatively close, but certainly not perfect….  yet

        You”vre reminded me of something from a couple years back.  You might find it useful.  It will most certainly produce a ‘filter’ sound like no other:   Resonator – Otherworldly ‘Wah’ Filter Sweeps

        https://www.eventideaudio.com/community/forum/stompboxes/resonator-otherworldly-wah-filter-sweeps

         

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