Will Rose be available as an H9 alg?

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    • #115168
      Boynigel
      Participant

      Can anyone from eventide weigh in as to whether Rose wil ever be offered as an H9 algorithm?  I’m guessing no, but can’t hurt to ask.

    • #151060
      nickrose
      Moderator
      Eventide Staff
      Boynigel wrote:

      Can anyone from eventide weigh in as to whether Rose wil ever be offered as an H9 algorithm?  I'm guessing no, but can't hurt to ask.

      You guess right. Rose has very specific hardware which cannot easily (anything is possible, but..) be expressed as a digital algorithm.

       

      • #151064
        Boynigel
        Participant
        nickrose wrote:
        Boynigel wrote:

        Can anyone from eventide weigh in as to whether Rose wil ever be offered as an H9 algorithm?  I'm guessing no, but can't hurt to ask.

        You guess right. Rose has very specific hardware which cannot easily (anything is possible, but..) be expressed as a digital algorithm.

         

        Not to mention it could potentially tick off H9 owners who purchase Rose only to see it released as a $20 (or free for max people) algorithm a year later. Looking forward to learning/hearing more about this pedal beyond the current teaser video

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      • #151071
        nickrose
        Moderator
        Eventide Staff
        Boynigel wrote:
        Not to mention it could potentially tick off H9 owners who purchase Rose only to see it released as a $20 (or free for max people) algorithm a year later. Looking forward to learning/hearing more about this pedal beyond the current teaser video

        To avoid a blue tinge to your skin, I would suggest that you not hold your breath. For the reason mentioned, it's not going to happen.

         

         

      • #151086
        AAgnello
        Moderator
        Eventide Staff
        Boynigel wrote:
        nickrose wrote:

        Boynigel wrote:

        Can anyone from eventide weigh in as to whether Rose wil ever be offered as an H9 algorithm?  I'm guessing no, but can't hurt to ask.

        Show More...

        You guess right. Rose has very specific hardware which cannot easily (anything is possible, but..) be expressed as a digital algorithm.

         

        Not to mention it could potentially tick off H9 owners who purchase Rose only to see it released as a $20 (or free for max people) algorithm a year later. Looking forward to learning/hearing more about this pedal beyond the current teaser video

         

        It's not like that. The H9 creates its effects using Digital Signal Processing, a DSP chip to execute our DSP algorithms. In theory DSP can do everything and Eventide has gotten rather good at creating DSP-based effects. With DSP, the analog signal is sampled at fixed sample rate and then the ones and zeros that represent the audio are added, multiplied, delayed, re-sampled, FFT'd, LPC'd, etc. 

        A few years ago we asked the question – Is there something that DSPs can't do well? and that had us thinking about some of our first products. Years before DSP was practical. In fact, back in the day, analog electronics could do everything except delay audio. Folks used tape machines back then for delay. The first digital box, our 1745, was simply a delay line because, when it was first practical to digitize audio, there were no DSP chips or any processors that could do anything useful with the digitized audio. 

        Of course this was a time before there were any standards for digital audio. The first standards came ten years later with the introduction of the CD (44.1kHz, 16 bit). So, back in the day one simple 'trick' was to sweep the sample rate, the clock. Then ~1974 bucket brigades became available. These devices were (and are) capable of short delays. They are not digital in that they don't convert the analog signal to ones and zeros but rather pass analog samples along a series of capacitors and switches. The typical BBD had ~1000 stages. Analog goes in one end and 1000 clock ticks later it's spit out the back end. So, if you clock the BBD at 50 kHz, you get a 20 msec delay. Want a longer or shorter delay? Clock slower or faster. IOW, vary the clock speed. 

        BBD's have an inherent limitation. As the sampled analog signal is passed along, not unlike trying to pass along buckets of water really really quickly, you get some spillage. That means, for audio, you get noise, distortion, etc. For short delays, BBDs work well enough when the delay is longer than a couple of hundred msec it's, well, a mess. 

        Eventide's Instant Flanger used BBDs and we always liked something about the sound of sweeping the sample rate. In fact, the H910, which also was 100% DSP-free, used a swept sample rate even though it was true digital. Again this was before there were standards or any other digital thingies to connect to.

        So, Rose. We had the thought that it might be fun to create products with wildily sweeping sample rates. We remember that there was something different about the sounds that those old non-standard pieces of gear created. We came up with the idea of creating a digital bucket brigade, marketing is calling it a 'bit bucket'. A bit bucket doesn't do any 'processing', no DSP. But the bit bucket overcomes two major limitations of analog BBDs.

        1) They can be many seconds long.

        2) They can go backwards.

        We've spent quite a bit of time on creating this platform and have other products in mind but let's see how Rose is recieved. It's weird and kind'a hard to wrap your head around (well, my head anyway). The folks who have tried it all say that it sounds different than anything else that they've used. That was the goal and the hope. It's a sound that would be difficult to achieve using standard DSP techniques. That's why it won't be an H9 alg. 

        One consequence of the bit bucket, non-DSP, approach is that any processing desired has to happen in the analog world. Mixing, filtering, feedback, soft sat are a snap if you have a DSP chip and write some code. Rose doesn't. So, it's a bit pricey to build with lots of analog components but it sure sounds sweet to me. It's also an inherently mono effect and we know folks will throw darts but it is what it is. A stereo version would add cost. 

        Sorry for the long post. Rose is fundamentally different. It's an experiment. It's a left turn. It's different. And, I love it. Now let's see if anyone else cares. 

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      • #151088
        brock
        Participant
        AAgnello wrote:
        … Sorry for the long post …

        Please, no apologies.  Your rare posts are always so detailed & informative.

        AAgnello wrote:
        … Rose is fundamentally different. It’s an experiment. It’s a left turn. It’s different. And, I love it. Now let’s see if anyone else cares.

        You had me at “microseconds”.

        https://www.eventideaudio.com/products/stompboxes/delay/rose

        • Five customizable factory presets
        • Analog Mix, Low Pass Filter, and Feedback
        • Six tactile knobs: mix, feedback, depth, delay, filter and rate
        • Invert phase flips the output phase with respect to the input phase for short delay times
        • Reverse delay plays the delay line backwards
        • Delay Multiplier increases the delay by either 2x, 3x, 4x or 5x
        • Assignable HotSwitch: Tap Tempo, Delay Repeat, Mod Hold, Mod Reset, A/B)
        • Multiple modulation sources: Sine, Square, Random, Envelope and External
        • Expression / Auxiliary / MIDI TRS input
        • Three different bypass types: Buffered, Relay, Kill Input
        • Accepts Line or Instrument Levels
        • The delay line’s clock can be swept over a wide range with delay time varying from .01 usec to 50 seconds.

    • #151077
      brysava
      Participant

      Would a Rose Conrtol App similar to or added to the H9/Factor Control App be do-able and likely?

       

      • #151079
        bohan
        Moderator
        Eventide Staff
        brysava wrote:

        Would a Rose Conrtol App similar to or added to the H9/Factor Control App be do-able and likely?

        I don't think so. They are totally two different products. 

      • #151100
        brysava
        Participant
        bohan wrote:

        brysava wrote:

        Would a Rose Conrtol App similar to or added to the H9/Factor Control App be do-able and likely?

        I don’t think so. They are totally two different products. 

        I just heard that there will be a software editor for the Rose in March, which is what I meant by my question, so that’s

        great news!!

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      • #151103
        tstern
        Moderator
        Eventide Staff
        brysava wrote:

        bohan wrote:

        brysava wrote:

        Would a Rose Conrtol App similar to or added to the H9/Factor Control App be do-able and likely?

        Show More...

        I don't think so. They are totally two different products. 

        I just heard that there will be a software editor for the Rose in March, which is what I meant by my question, so that's

        great news!!

         

        There's some misunderstanding over that video.  At the moment there's an update app and a basic preset manager, but there aren't really any plans to do an H9 Control-style app.

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    • #151101
      alexone
      Participant

      Very interesting pedal. I didn’t understand how it works. There is no DSP but does the signal goes through AD/DA converter? The purpose of the digital part is only to delay the signal?

      • #151105
        tstern
        Moderator
        Eventide Staff
        alexone wrote:
        Very interesting pedal. I didn't understand how it works. There is no DSP but does the signal goes through AD/DA converter? The purpose of the digital part is only to delay the signal?

         

        Pretty much exactly correct. If you want to delay a signal, you have to store it for the entire length of the delay.  That's impossible (or takes impractical physics) to do with purely analog electronics.  All the solutions people have used for this in the past come with their own limitations; tape is unwieldy, noisy and relatively acoustically inflexible (haha).  Classical bucket brigade chips are semi-analog, but are noisy, leaky, and have to be run at a very low sample rate to get a good amount of delay time.  Tubes of mercury work well too, but you need to have a tube full of mercury in your basement (you get the picture).  What we do, instead, is convert the analog signal to a bunch of digital samples and store them that way; our society has lots of great electronics for doing that bit.  Then, a little bit later, we convert exactly the same samples (in exactly the same order) back into analog signals.  The trick, though, is that we're modulating the sample rate so that sometimes those samples get played back at a different speed than they went in.  They also get mixed and filtered entirely as analog signals, so there aren't any digital processing artifacts from those functions.

    • #151158
      skywriter
      Participant

      This sounds like the early rack mount digital delays from the 80’s by DoD, Ibanez, etc… although with some more advanced delay modulation waveforms other than sine/triangle. I still have several of these old variable simple rate devices around, which by the way, I agree sounds quite a bit better than fixed sample rate/DSP techniques – less aliasing and anharmonic artifacts.

      • #151163
        llemtt
        Participant
        skywriter wrote:
        This sounds like the early rack mount digital delays from the 80’s by DoD, Ibanez, etc… although with some more advanced delay modulation waveforms other than sine/triangle. I still have several of these old variable simple rate devices around, which by the way, I agree sounds quite a bit better than fixed sample rate/DSP techniques – less aliasing and anharmonic artifacts.

        There are already a few delay pedals that use the same “bit bucket” concept (pt2399 is the chip).

        Too me this is definitely the way to go with delay based effects! Rose is a great product that was missing.

    • #151159
      skywriter
      Participant

      Mercury delay lines? You’re showing your age 🙂

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