ADSR (Sustain, Release … ) with Synths on H90

[winihh]

Am I missing something?

I love the synths on the H90.

What I am missing are controls for the classic ADSR… you have Attack but the other three are missing.

I am a bass player… and I can control the length of notes via the bass… but… for more synthy-like sounds it would be great to control the full tone.

Have I missed something?

(Anyhow… I already said in the wish-thread, that it would be great to have the option of Midi-Out-Note values… in order to connect hardware synths or use the H90 to record Midi within a DAW.)

[brock]

I’m with your on a global ADSR control (or two) FR.  I’ve said this before, but – to my mind – a Step Sequencer (w/ smoothing for LFO) could cover all these related feature requests with one-shot / X repetitions / looping capability.

There are those fixed ADSR controls in the modulation algos, and HotSawz Attack / Decay Gate options. But you seem to be referencing to the new PolySynth algorithm, though.  Limited at first glance, but a lot can be done with that configuration.  Much of it (yes) focuses on the filter envelope follower, but I find that envelope to be a remarkable achievement.

Attack = attack, input envelope as initial decay, again input envelope or FREEZE as sustain, input envelope or FREEZE REL as the release portion.  For an ADSR control over amplitude, I’ve been using both Preset slots in series, with PolySynth in Preset B.

That way, you can shape the input envelope before it ever gets to PolySynth.  TremoloPan (even as a Manual volume control), UltraTap (Chop) Trigger or Swell, DynaVerb’s Omnipressor mode (Gated is a great choice), or even delay algorithms in Preset A.

A couple of ideas to get started, anyway.

[winihh]

brock wrote:

A. A couple of ideas to get started, anyway.

 

Wow. Thanks for those ideas Brock. I think I will have to do a deep dive into this. Somehow I did not understand completely what you mean… I understood that you propose to send a certain envelope (from a effect) into the synth… right?

What I especially want to achieve is a very short synth, that stops playing ignoring the audio from my bass guitar… in other words: I play a note and the result should be a note that has always the same (short) length…

However… it might be simpler to have the ADSR / Envelope integrated in the synth itself…  With this you could use other effects on top of the synth…

Using HotSawz plus a LowPass-Filter via Expression Pedal on B I came very near to the sound I am looking for.

I keep on trying.

 

[brock]

Yes, I did mean that you can shape the envelope before it ever gets to the synth.  To get your short envelope, it might be easiest to first try out TremoloPan into PolySynth in Series.  [You can also try out Manual / Manual Mod with your expression pedal here, instead of Env / ADSR as the Shape (below)]:

• Depth – up full
• Adjust Speed / Sensitivity after selecting …
• … Shape to Env or ADSR
• Width – 0
• The remaining controls to 0, or to taste.

———————————————————————

The one I use most often is a little trickier to dial in:  UltraTap into PolySynth in Series.

• Mix – 100%
• Length – 0 mS
• Taps – 1
• Pre Delay, Spread, Taper, Feedback, Tone, Slurm – all at 0
• Chop – Trigger or Swell adjust between 0-9
• Speed/ Rise / Release – the decay time of Trigger, or the Attack time of Swell.
• Width – 0

Bottom Line:  You are just using the “Chop Machine” section in UltraTap.  Tricker because crossing the threshold of Trigger or Swell takes some fine adjustment  of 0-9 to get the most consistent results.  And it also depends on your input note levels.  A compressor on your bass beforehand might help out there.  Also, mix in any of the original signal with the Program Mix control.  Everything else will be 100% wet in Series.

———————————————————————

And yes, it would be simpler with an ADSR in the synths themselves, but I’m all about working with what you currently have.  PolySynth has me going back to revisit HotSawz for similar effects.

One more option just might be going external, with another pedal as Inserts before your H90 synth of choice.  I use a Poly Effects Beebo for this, and have used a Pigtronix Philosopher King as well.  Seems like the reissue EHX Attack Decay would be a perfect choice here (the rare original I have here is far too noisy).

[brock]

Something like this might be one more way to get started.  It uses the same general concepts, but with the Omnipressor mode in DynaVerb as the “envelope”.  In Series with a mono-configured PolySynth – all 100% wet.

https://patchstorage.com/attack-bass-tbrock-303/

This next one has some dry mixed in (which you can dial back).  The idea here was to use HotSawz for its fast attack, and PolySynth for a slower attack, with the two synths in parallel.  Bypass one or the other, if it suits your purpose.

https://patchstorage.com/mono-y-mono-sawsquare/

There is a lot of tweaking built into both of these Programs with [P] [A] HotKnobs, HotSwitches, Performance controls, and dual expression pedals.  I’m thinking it might be easiest of all to dial around parameters using some existing Programs, then Save what you like afterwards.

[winihh]

Thank you Brock… I will try all.

 

[winihh]

Actually I am looking for something like this… very simple… but did not achieve it till now… without the arp… 😉 Only the pure sound.

[brock]

I held off on using the HarPeggiator (Rhythms only)  as a sequencer for the advanced lesson.  But it sounds like you got what you wanted out of the H90 synth(s).

After a quick listen, I believe you can get that result with palm or left hand muting on your bass, with just the synth.  Let the envelope follower do the heavy lifting.  It would leave room in Preset B for – for example – Chorus or ModEchoVerb for a touch of wobble and space around the synth.

You *could* simulate that chorusing with PWM modulation in PolySynth, though.  Or even Osc Depth modulation in HotSawz.  But I can understand shaping the bass input before it ever gets to the synth, for consistency’s sake.

The important part would be the Cutoff & Resonance settings (which you can mirror almost 1:1 from the MiniFreak).  Substitute your expression pedal for Mod Wheel control over the Cutoff.  As for that “bass” waveform, either the Mix in HotSawz, or a combination of Shifts & Shapes in PolySynth.  -1Oct and either Triangle or Narrow Pulse waveforms.

 

[winihh]

Thanks again Brock… after some playing around I am beginning to be happy with the HotSawz… I prefer it, because the end of the notes is much more correct and on the point.

I am near my sounds now… with or without palm mute 😉 and with the cutoff on expression pedal. It is so much fun to noodle around with them.

Shaping the sound before the synth… well, I do feel that I won’t need that. In my feeling (I am not a professional) the shaping like ADSR and envelope always follows the initial tone/curve… Your concept might work – but ist really new to me.

When I tested my “synths” in a live environment I will add them for download. I will give them some time to develop.

[brock]

winihh wrote:

… In my feeling (I am not a professional) the shaping like ADSR and envelope always follows the initial tone/curve…

Not to belabor the point, just by way of explanation.  We were mainly dealing with an envelope follower controlling a filter here.  So, Preset A actually creates / recreates the envelope from an input signal, much like an ADSR over amplitude would.  Preset B follows that shape with its filter.

It is certainly a viable option to have Preset B shape the signal after the filter has processed it, in Preset A.  It will create a completely different sound.  Whenever I finalize a Program, I always use the Swap function to see what I like better (as well as Series / Parallel routing).

[brock]

Glad to hear about your progress.  I think there is a lot to be learned by perfecting a specific sound, using another toolset.  Yes, simpler is better, with regards to the pre-shaping options here.  They were just some additional options to consider.

And HotSawz is a great choice, especially with your bass as input.  Monophonic, forgiving of simpler intervals, but it can get glitchy with more complexity and chords.  You’ve probably adjusted this already  [System – Source Type – Sub (Bass)] for tracking & filters.

If I get the chance, I’ll have a go at recreating that Disclosure sound myself with HotSawz and PolySynth.

[Author]

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