Alleged Issue With H9 MIDI Thru

[pureambient]

Hi

I am currently researching and comparing MIDI controllers to use with my three Eventide H9 pedals.

And possibly, my two Factor series stomps, too.

During my research, I read something quite, quite alarming, on one of the MIDI pedal manufacturer’s sites:

“Some devices have a MIDI output / thru but do not reliably pass incoming MIDI data – The Eventide Factor series and H9 are like this.”

I am researching controllers because I am going to build a pedalboard, which is centred around the three H9s. This allegation would seem to intimate that the H9s and the Factor Series, don’t have a “reliable” MIDI Thru connector…that what goes in, does not come out reliably.

If true, then I am kinda screwed. Sure – they have a solution, I can buy an additional box to connect each one separately. No thank you! But that does create a problem, as my plan was to daisy chain them together using the Thru connectors – as you normally would.

First of all, can someone confirm or deny this perplexing accusation?

And, if it turns out to be true – how can I then daisy chain these for my MIDI implementation, if the Thru connectors are indeed, not passing the Input “reliably”??

Please advise.

Thanks!

Dave

davestafford.bandcamp.com
http://www.pureambient.com

[nickrose]

We believe that THRU is good on the latest H9 software. There were issues on previous versions – it would work OK, except when a program was being loaded.

 

[pureambient]

Thanks for this, I appreciate your honesty!

There wouldn’t be much I could do – I am NOT going to get rid of my H9s !!!

What are your feelings about the length of a MIDI chain? Am I OK chaining together

The 3 H9s ??

The 3 H9s and my pitch factor and my space?

The 3 H9s and my pitch factor and my space and my Digitech Whammy?

That’s just six, and I may well have more in the future. I am aware that I have the option of getting a splitter and running two chains off of one MIDI OUT, but I don’t want to do that if t is unnecessary.

Thanks again…you might want to have a word with Disaster Area – they still have that very negative comment up there and they should at least modify it with the latest information.

Thanks again…I really, really appreciate it.

Best

Dave

[nickrose]

I suspect that the longer the chain is the less reliable it will be (with any pedals). My suggestion would be to try it and see how it works for you.

 

[brock]

I can give you my personal experience.  One branch of my MIDI routing daisy-chains through a PitchFactor, and on through 2 H9s.  I consider three devices in a daisy chain to be a practical limit. You might have success sticking the Whammy as a fourth, because its a deadend [MIDI In only].

There are a few things to take into account here.  Newer devices might have a few microseconds of processing delay.  Older devices, maybe more.  There’s also ‘digital distortion’.  The MIDI optoisolators don’t have an instant rise time.  Those ‘ones & zeros’ get slightly corrupted with each MIDI device in the series.  It might be 10 devices before you experience data loss … it could be 3.

It will also depend heavily on what you’re throwing down the MIDI cable.  Timing clock must – by definition – remain at a predictable interval.  Program changes (one on each MIDI Channel) will reserve a data byte each.  If you send six, they will travel down the line in series.  Still not a big issue.  But then you fold in note numbers, pitchbend, or continuous controllers, and the MIDI pipeline will start to clog up.  If you want to change any individual effect parameters in real time, you’ll have to deal with this.

As your MIDI system becomes more complex, you’re going to need a MIDI Thru (splitter) box.  No way around it.  I have a 4-way mounted under the pedalboard.  It is fed by MIDI Clock & controller processing from my ‘secret weapon’; merging through a MIDI pedalboard.  Each branch of the 4-way has its own group of MIDI channels.  I throw quite a volume of MIDI data down the line, yet everything still plays nicely together.

[pureambient]

Hello Brock,

May I ask…what MIDI pedal you use, and what’s good about it, esp. for Eventide pedals, and what’s bad about is, esp. for Eventide pedals??

I was thinking that three per line is safe enough, doubt I would try more.

I can’t try anything because I haven’t bought my MIDI pedal yet.

I like the the look of the little Soleman from Source Audio because it has two MIDI outs, which could mean 2 chains of 3.

But I don’t know if the Soleman unit is robust enough to handle five Eventide devices and a Whammy. And some unknown future pedals.

Trying to decide which MIDI pedal to buy is a difficult task, but I do understand that there are some limitations that occur no matter how good your hardware is.

I am not expecting perfection, my main goal, is to change programs on the three H9s – just change programs!

Any expression pedal work, I believe I would do with the expression pedals attached directly to the H9’s so as NOT to overburden the MIDI lines with additional commands. I don’t have a huge desire to have one expression pedal attached to my MIDI pedal, when the H9’s native expression control is so good…or seems to be good from what I read.

It might be that I am better off with a single output device like Ground Control Pro from Voodoo Labs, and get a four way splitter. That would give me eight.

I am curious about what MIDI pedal you use that allows you four working chains of three – 12 devices – that’s awesome, pushing the envelope…

In any case, really appreciate your comments – and thank you again!!

Dave

[brock]

pureambient wrote:

Hello Brock, May I ask…what MIDI pedal you use, and what’s good about it, esp. for Eventide pedals, and what’s bad about is, esp. for Eventide pedals?? I was thinking that three per line is safe enough, doubt I would try more. I can’t try anything because I haven’t bought my MIDI pedal yet. I like the the look of the little Soleman from Source Audio because it has two MIDI outs, which could mean 2 chains of 3. But I don’t know if the Soleman unit is robust enough to handle five Eventide devices and a Whammy. And some unknown future pedals. Trying to decide which MIDI pedal to buy is a difficult task, but I do understand that there are some limitations that occur no matter how good your hardware is. I am not expecting perfection, my main goal, is to change programs on the three H9s – just change programs! Any expression pedal work, I believe I would do with the expression pedals attached directly to the H9’s so as NOT to overburden the MIDI lines with additional commands. I don’t have a huge desire to have one expression pedal attached to my MIDI pedal, when the H9’s native expression control is so good…or seems to be good from what I read. It might be that I am better off with a single output device like Ground Control Pro from Voodoo Labs, and get a four way splitter. That would give me eight. I am curious about what MIDI pedal you use that allows you four working chains of three – 12 devices – that’s awesome, pushing the envelope… In any case, really appreciate your comments – and thank you again!! Dave

Actually, I’m using a FCB1010.  Nothing special;; factory unit; no uNo EPROM.  Yes, it’s like carrying around a 2nd pedalboard.  I like that it’s available & cheap enough to replace at a moment’s notice.  It’s built like a tank, and has wide switch spacing that’s hard to miss.  I don’t remember that “Roland-type” part number, but I like the solid feel of those switch types.  More importantly, each switch can transmit 5 program changes, two static CC values, a note number, 2 relays, and 2 variable CC values.  10 switches in 10 banks.  It’s a bear to progam manually, but a (free) PC editor makes it easy (after some woodshedding with it).

If I were starting over, the Soleman would be near the top of the list.  It seems to build on the well thought out implementation of SA pedals. [ I do have their MWD Pro digital distortion and Reflex expression pedal on my main ‘board. ]  I’ve tried several quite capable MIDI controllers.  Stuff like the KMI ‘Steps are amazing, but – for me –  more at home in a studio / keyboard environment.  If you just want to do program changes, almost anything on the market will do.  If you’d like to future-proof, and allow room to grow into deeper capabilities, then I’d say you’re on the right track with the Soleman.  Full disclaimer:  I’ve never tried one, and I’m basing this on the manual and what I know of the Source Audio culture.

What I’m doing with discrete MIDI components is very close to what Source Audio is doing with MIDI scripts, and hardware configurations.  I use an Event Processor to ‘translate’ the FCB-1010 messages for different branches of a MIDI Thru box.  I also have an 8-channel MIDI router on the small rack, but that’s more for integrating my live rig into a fairly complex home studio setup.  I don’t think you’d have to worry about the Soleman handling a large amount of pedals.  Probably with a learning curve (to get everything ‘just right’).

I do agree with you that direct expression pedals are a good option.  I do that myself.  But consider that a MIDI CC from an expression pedal action can exert control over all (or many) pedals at once.  And controlling a different parameter type in each pedal.  There’s something to be said for synchronized effects spread over all of your effects.  For example, I have a few banks of 10 switches that just change Diatonic key & scale.  But those same messages also change EQ, ‘verb, short delay, etc., to sound closer to multiple guitar layering.

I’m not out to sell you anything in particular.  When I was building up my system, no one MIDI device was capable of doing what I needed it to.  So I identified what was really important to me, then researched like crazy to find that one component.  You’re going through that same process, but instead of component, swap that out for ‘feature’.  Essential; nice to have; cool factor; might use in the future; totally unimportant … and then list the downsides.  Go feature-by-feature, compare unit feature sets side-by-side, and your final selection will jump out at you.  Or – in my case – a final rig straight out of a B&W Frankenstein movie.

[Given To Fly]

pureambient wrote:

Hello Brock, May I ask…what MIDI pedal you use, and what’s good about it, esp. for Eventide pedals, and what’s bad about is, esp. for Eventide pedals?? I was thinking that three per line is safe enough, doubt I would try more. I can’t try anything because I haven’t bought my MIDI pedal yet. I like the the look of the little Soleman from Source Audio because it has two MIDI outs, which could mean 2 chains of 3. But I don’t know if the Soleman unit is robust enough to handle five Eventide devices and a Whammy. And some unknown future pedals. Trying to decide which MIDI pedal to buy is a difficult task, but I do understand that there are some limitations that occur no matter how good your hardware is. I am not expecting perfection, my main goal, is to change programs on the three H9s – just change programs!

So, I feel like this is a safe place to ask questions concerning MIDI.

With analog pedals, you experience “tone suck.” With MIDI devices, do you experience “Information suck?” I hope that makes sense to someone. 

Is it safe to say one MIDI controller sending information to 1 MIDI device that can do many things will yield a better result than sending information to 5 MIDI devices that do fewer things? 

I was always under the impression MIDI was impervious to problems with the exception of user error. 

pureambient is running into a problem that I think many people have run into with MIDI (and expression pedals for that matter) which is being unable to “try before you buy.”  When it comes to MIDI foot controllers, there are 14 random companies you’ve never heard of and Behringer. Music stores (they do still exist) do not carry MIDI controllers (or expression pedals) because they do not sell. Fair enough. However, it is hard for a product to sell if a store never carries it. This type of self-fulfilling prophecy is not very helpful when a person actually needs a MIDI controller. Ironically, the only thing that is less helpful is the internet, specifically http://www.midi.org. 

Now, I know you (Eventide) have already thought of this, weighed the pros and cons, and made your decision, but an “Eventide MIDI Controller” might not be a bad idea. Judging by the number of  H9/MIDI troubleshooting threads on these Forums, I actually think it would be a really good idea. I doubt demand would be an issue. Perhaps this quote will sum everything up: “I am confident you know what you are doing, you should not be confident I know what I am doing.” (This does not apply to Brock, he knows what he is doing.) If an “Eventide MIDI Controller” came into existence, it would have a manual that would be read many times over leading to more people understanding how to use MIDI and have a high-quality MIDI controller to put their new found knowledge to use. 

However, like I said in the beginning, I know you have already thought of this, weighed the pros and cons, and made your decision. I am looking forward to NAMM 2017. 

[Author]

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