Changing Key In Real Time Using My PitchFactor

[jmseiver]

I want to use the Diatonic effect on my PitchFactor to play the harmonized lead guitar part of Toto's "Child Anthem".

The only way that I know to play this part correctly is to change the Diatonic effect "key" several times during the song; that is, change the "key" as the song moves through the I, V, II, etc. changes.

I hope I am saying that correctly.

What is the best way to change the "key" in real time?  My thought was to start the Diatonic effect in the "I"-related key, then use an expression pedal to change to the "V"-related key and to the "II"-related key.

I have never been successful using my PitchFactor because I could never finding a Key / Scale combination that works for an entire guitar "run"!  I must be doing something wrong because this is the main purpose of the PitchFactor, right?

Hello Eventide Team, please help me here.  I REALLY want to play "guitar harmony" / "twin guitar lead" runs using your products.  I just can't get this working to my satisfaction. Thank you!

Please help me!  Thanks!

[brock]

Quote:

The only way that I know to play this part correctly is to change the Diatonic effect "key" several times during the song; that is, change the "key" as the song moves through the I, V, II, etc. changes  …  What is the best way to change the "key" in real time?

In my opinion, MIDI.  If it's only 2 keys + 2 scales, you might get away with using Aux switches.  While I always have expression pedal programming on all of my presets, I personally wouldn't use that to change Diatonic scales.

For an explanation of how I change Diatonic key & scale over MIDI, click here.

[jmseiver]

Brock,

Thank you so much for your response!

I have an older Roland FC-300 foot MIDI controller.  Would that work for this application?  What would you recommend?

Do you think that the PitchFactor, for harmony guitar parts only, will work as well as the Eventide big boys like H800FW?

Thanks for everything!

Nick Rose,

If you see this post, I wanted to tell you that when I looked at an older response you gave to me this morning, I wondered if you were the same Nick Rose that work with ELP – and you ARE!  Awesome – my favorite band of all time!  I asked you to connect with me on LinkedIn, I would be honored if you would accept!

Brock and Nick,

I am SERIOUS about getting the twin guitar harmony to work!  If I need to buy gear or pay someone to help me program my MIDI, I will do it.  Would you guys consider helping me or send me to the right people, please?  Thanks!

[jmseiver]

Brock,

Thank you for your reply.  Do you think that my older Roland FC-300 will work?  Is the MIDI programming a steep learning curve, I have a degree in Computer Engineering but I am so short on time these days?

Thanks!

[brock]

jmseiver:

Do you think that my older Roland FC-300 will work?

Yes.

Quote:

Is the MIDI programming a steep learning curve, I have a degree in Computer Engineering but I am so short on time these days?

Some find MIDI programming daunting.  Considering your degree, you'll be in BASIC or FORTRAN 101 territory with this.  I understand the time crunch, but we're talking about plugging in one CC value for key – and one CC value for scale – as a start.  Any other key/scale combinations are variations on that theme.

The first important steps are to dust off the FC-300, download the manuals & reference guides, and get the Roland and Eventide units to talk to each other.  Once you have that going, there's no limit as to how far you can take it.  But you can get exactly what you want – real time harmony changes – without having a complete understanding of all of MIDI's nuances.

Maybe make a visit to MIDI.org, or an online MIDI guide.  You don't have to learn it all right now.  Just how MIDI CC (continuous controllers) work, and how that applies to your Roland FC-300 and PitchFactor/H9 Diatonic algorithm.  Everything else can build on that foundation.

I usually carry the programming and reference guides around in a tablet for any new piece of gear.  When I get a spare second, I'll try to 'configure' that unit in with my existing setup.  When I finally do get the time to sit down with it, there's no fumbling around with the basics.

[jmseiver]

Brock,

Got the FC-300 to talk to the PitchFactor.  Don't understand much about what is going on.

Where are the CC ranges defined for the PitchFactor?  For example:

"Key of C" = 0 – 5, "Key of C#" = 6 – 18, etc.?

Can you use just CC 0 for "Key of C"?

Cool stuff!  Thanks for the "steer" into MIDI.  To play the song I'm interested in, I switch keys once (E Major to A Major) and change scales once (Major to Minor) – "Child's Anthem" sings!

Thanks again!

John

[brock]

jmseiver:

Brock,

Got the FC-300 to talk to the PitchFactor.  Don't understand much about what is going on.

It's a good start.  I'm not that familiar with the FC-300 "modes" (how the switches send CC messages), but I'll help there if I can.  I've browsed the manual, and there appears to be a few ways to go about this.

Quote:

Where are the CC ranges defined for the PitchFactor?  For example:

"Key of C" = 0 – 5, "Key of C#" = 6 – 18, etc.?

If you mean how did I come up with those particular values, I figured it out on my own.  It's not part of any official documentation.  If the FC-300 sends those CC values over the same CC number that the PF is expecting to receive on, the Diatonic Key will automatically "snap" to that key when the FC-300 footswitch is pressed.

Quote:

Can you use just CC 0 for "Key of C"?

Careful here.  A CC / continuous controller message has two (really, three) parts.  Literally, data bytes.  The PitchFactor will receive over CC numbers 0-99.  Pick any one for Key, and any other one for Scale.  The FC-300 will have to send over that CC number, and the PF parameter will have to receive over that same CC number.

The second part is the CC value [0-127 total range].  That will determine the Key (C, C#, D, etc.), or the Scale (MAJ, min, etc.).  That's where my linked range of values comes in.  (The remaining part is the MIDI Channel; set elsewhere on the FC-300 and PitchFactor.  These will match for overall communication.)

Any of those CC values that I have listed in narrow ranges will call up the correct Key or Scale.  If the FC-300 and PitchFactor are "talking" over CC Number 38 (the default), then CC value 0, or 1, or 2,3,4,5 will call up the Key of C.  When the value reaches 6 through 18, then the Key of C# will be called up.

Quote:

Cool stuff!  Thanks for the "steer" into MIDI.  To play the song I'm interested in, I switch keys once (E Major to A Major) and change scales once (Major to Minor) – "Child's Anthem" sings!

E MAJ

selected CC number for Key – one CC value from 41 through 51

 

selected CC number for Scale – one CC value from 0 through 6

A MAJ

selected CC number for Key – one CC value from 98 through 108

 

selected CC number for Scale – one CC value from 0 through 6

 

E min

selected CC number for Key – one CC value from 41 through 51

selected CC number for Scale – one CC value from 7 through 15

 

A min

selected CC number for Key – one CC value from 98 through 108

 

selected CC number for Scale – one CC value from 7 through 15

 

I hope I got that all correct.  If you or I spot an error, it's because I was trying to convey a lot of information in a short period of time (and attempting to be succinct).  See where this reply gets you, and follow up with any more questions.

[jmseiver]

Brock,

Thank you for helping me with this.

I have looked for an overview on MIDI CC "syntax" or whatever and I've yet to find anything specific on the WWW.  I will keep looking.

So, as I understand it, MIDI CC messages have two components that the user cares about:

1. CC number (#); e.g., 6
2. CC value (range); e.g., 0 – 5

The PitchFactor lets you assign your own CC# (0 – 99?) to the Control Knobs; I assigned CC# 6 to Control Knob 6 (the knob which changes the Key).  I can understand Eventide not assigning these numbers.

But I would expect Eventide to define the value ranges that acts on each Key; they have to know these ranges when they design the pedal.   ???

But I digress.  Thanks again; I will keep working with MIDI and see what it can do.  Thanks again, you help has solved my problem.

BTW, for harmony only, how does the PF compare to the H8000FX in terms of the time delay between the fundamental note and the harmony one(s)?  Any idea?

John

[brock]

jmseiver:

Brock,

Thank you for helping me with this.

I have looked for an overview on MIDI CC "syntax" or whatever and I've yet to find anything specific on the WWW.  I will keep looking.

I hope this helps, rather than confusing the issue.  I have quite a few post replies that attempt to clarify MIDI control over the Stompboxes.  Here are the first two that I could find.  I'm sure there are many more if you use "Search this site" for brock MIDI.

New to MIDI – Controlling a PitchFactor and L6 M5

MIDI Control with Behringer FCB 1010

Maybe I can find a few more MIDI guides or references on the 'Net, or within this site.

Quote:

So, as I understand it, MIDI CC messages have two components that the user cares about:

1. CC number (#); e.g., 6
2. CC value (range); e.g., 0 – 5

The PitchFactor lets you assign your own CC# (0 – 99?) to the Control Knobs; I assigned CC# 6 to Control Knob 6 (the knob which changes the Key).  I can understand Eventide not assigning these numbers.

Yes.  Eventide didn't assign specific CC numbers for the most versatility and compatibility.  Just make sure that one CC number doesn't unintentionally conflict with another parameter that may be pre-assigned (defaulting) to the same CC Number.  Are you using the H9 Control app to program your PitchFactor?  I find it to be much, much easier to see everything at a glance in one place.

And you've grasped a very important distinction.  CC numbers range from 0-127 over a specific MIDI Channel.  Eventide chose to implement 100 of these [0-99].  There are 128 CC Values under each CC Number.  Think of it as a 128 knob amplifier or mixing console, with each one of the knobs or faders adjustable from 0 to 127.

Quote:

But I would expect Eventide to define the value ranges that acts on each Key; they have to know these ranges when they design the pedal.   ???

Yes and no.  There are 5 Stompboxes now, dozens & dozens of algorithms, and around 10 parameters for each algorithm.  Each one of those effect parameters is under MIDI control.  And it gets more complicated than that.

A parameter like the H910/H949 Pitch Control has 3 possible settings.  MIDI CC values will always have 128 possible values.  128/3.  The Diatonic algo has 12 Keys, and 13 Scales.  128/12, and 128/13.  A Delay parameter has hundreds of possible values by millisecond.  You won't be able to exactly select every possible millisecond increment (128 divided by, say, 3000).

I'm fortunate to have an embarrassment of MIDI options available to me.  Instead of fumbling around until I find a particular setting for MIDI control, I'll use a graduated "MIDI Knob" to adjust through the value range, or a keyboard encoder or switch to "step through" the possible combinations.  The PitchFactor parameters alone were a mission over MIDI.  But I – like you – had some specific external control in mind that was worth all the effort.

Quote:

BTW, for harmony only, how does the PF compare to the H8000FX in terms of the time delay between the fundamental note and the harmony one(s)?  Any idea?

John

I do not know.  I would have loved using an Eclipse or H8000 instead of my massive pedalboards.  But I've used an array of "pitch shifters" over the years.  Many, many manufacturers, "intelligent" shifting, "harmonizers", "octavers", Whammy's, "Voice" workers … the PitchFactor / H9 have been the most accurate & consistent with what I hear in my mind's ear.  And the most versatile.

As for the processing delay for pitch shifting … it's there.  I've never attempted to measure it, but I've found it to be negligible in context.  I do a lot of digital recording, so I'm all over the results at a microscopic level.  You may notice processing delay in isolation, but it "disappears" in a track or live venue.  We're talking about the threshold of human reaction time here.

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