Disappointing ModFactor Chorus

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    • #105433
      guitarsandgolf
      Member

      Hi,

      I purcased the MF because I was SURE it would replace several of my analog chorus pedals–which include the CE-2, Arion, and new BBE pedals.  Man was I wrong.  The Arion cost me all of $15, and it smokes all the MF chorus sounds.  

       As someone else on TGP mentioned, I can't seem to get rid of the short delay "slapback" thing.  And what's up with feedback on a chorus? Every decent chorus I can think of has a delay time knob to control the "warbly-ness" of the chorus.  One of your chourus flavors has a delay time control, but it doesn't seem to work in the traditional fashion.  The  Fulltone ChoralFlange, while not the best sounding chorus, seems to have the perfect control options.

      Anyway, I was wondering if I am alone in my dissatisfaction with the chorus tones on this unit, and if there are any plans to improve the chorus algorithems. 

    • #117124
      IDeangelis
      Member

       Hello

       welcome to Eventide forums!

      This is a highly positive community focused on supporting our products and exchanging suggestions to improve or products. We take into good consideration what people says about our products.

      So far ModFactor has met a terrific positive feedback worldwide, at any user level.

      The unit is a *digital* modulator so some analog products you may refer to…are obviously different sounding. So, in general the point is that an Eventide chorus, a standard in the music industry, won'y ever sound like an Arion pedal. No matter how good or bad the user may judge these products. It remains a very personal opinion what a product sounds like for the user.

      A digital chorus is based on basic digital delay functionalities: a delay line is being modulated by a low frequency oscillator.

      Delay control allows YOU to change the setting of delay time. Chorus FX generally lives in the 8 to 25 milliseconds range.

      Feedback is actually a very cool thing to have as it will allow YOU to make a flanger, by lowering delay time and adding regeneration. In a typical chorus setting you may keep feedback at minimum setting. Warblyness is not controlled by delay time. Feedback and modulation depth will add that to a chorus.

      If you take the time to specifically describe what is that you look for in a chorus, w/details, we would be very grateful to hear that.

      Our idea of chorus is more based on historic Eventide chorusing, TC and DynoMyPiano units.

      all the best

    • #117126
      guitarsandgolf
      Member

      Hi,
      thanks for the reply.  I didn't mean to imply that I expected it
      to sound like an analog unit.  I was just looking to approach that
      smoothness and lushness with a bit more control.  Unfortunately, I didn't get the opportunity
      to further tweak the unit, because the intensity knob crapped out on me
      after about an hour of use.  At first it worked fine, then I noticed
      the display alternating back and forth between the bar display and the
      intensity numerical display looking like it was trying to "catch up" to
      the position of the knob.  I checked the "catchup" setting, but it was
      disabled.  Finally, the intensity control failed altogether, with
      system and memory re-initializations having no curative effect.

      It seemed like a software issue, particularly the way the display
      looked like it was trying to catch up.  Has this issue occurred
      before?  I'm sending it back to the retailer for a replacement, but I
      thought you should be aware of the issue.

      Cheers

    • #117128
      Andy S
      Member

      I think the MODFACTOR is a great product. however I agree with the original poster that the chorus sounds are subpar. I can actually get a better and warmer chorus sound out of my Timefactor than the Modfactor which does'nt make sense to me….

      The modfactor chorus sounds very digital and cold to my ears while I find it easy to dial in a warm rich analog voiced chorus on the TImefactor.

      I believe having a filter/toneknob on the timefactor is what the difference is.

      Perhaps adding a filter or tone control option would help on the modfactor ?? Not sure if this is acheivable with a software update….

      I dig all the other sounds by the way…..the phaser, rotary, vibrato and trem effects are worth the price of admission for this unit .

    • #117129
      Crysstalized
      Participant

      I am enjoying the MF as well, but have also found the chorus a bit lacking. I don't mind it being digital. I didn't care for the TC chorus I had, but the Tri-Stereo DynoMyPiano seems like a good idea. The chorus settings seem to have too much delay time, which in my opinion leads to a colder sounding chorus (I like the current EQ), I wish the chorus types could be given delay time controls on each of them—AND allow them to be adusted down to maybe 4ms (getting slightly into flange delay time). I come from the "CE-1 Chorus Ensemble" and "Small Clone" and "Dimension C" school of chorus generally. It would be great if the delay time control let you see a ms reading on the display as well, instead of 1-100 dial.

      I would love to find out what each of the TYPES are as well (still have an unanswered post about that here). I hope this comes across as constructive. I have loved my TF updates and look forward to what you guys do with the MF. Thanks.

    • #128192
      DGillespie
      Moderator
      Eventide Staff

      Hey guys,

      One of the issues we ran into while developing this pedal was finding out what people wanted out of it.  We found that there are a vast array of existing Modulation style effects and that almost every guitarist wanted a different combination of them.  This is actually why we added the type knob to try to support they largest range of different chorus, phaser, and flanger sounds.

      This being said, if we missed a particular style of chorus we'd like to try to add it if there is room.  So, what do you think is missing from the current chorus options.

      Dan

    • #128193
      mlabbee
      Member

      It might be helpful to get a bit more detail behind the algorithms used in the various chorus types. For example – are any of them multi-voiced? If I recall, the Roland/Boss Dimension C is a two voice chorus with the LFO's out of phase. i think the Ibanez Bi-mode choruses used one delay line with two separate oscillators (a nice sounding chorus). Having a better sense for how these choruses are implemented might help people tweak them more to their liking. I think that's my biggest issue with the MF so far – I just don't understand enough about the algortihms to get things where I like them. (overall, though, I'm very happy – the rotary is awesome).

      Other thoughts – would be nice to be able to control the dry signal a bit more – haven't figured out how to do that with someof the effects (still fiddling, though)

    • #128194
      guitarsandgolf
      Member

       First off, I have to say that I find it astonishing–not to mention refreshing–that you are actually asking for input on revisions to the software.  AMAZING!

       I would answer that question by offering my thoughts on multi-effects in general.  My sense is that most players–myself included– look to pedal-based multi effects to give them a programmable,  space-friendly, and easy-to-navigate-live solution to replace multiple stomp boxes on their pedal boards.  The key is that it replace those boxes without sacrificing too much in the way of tone.  Line 6 has been moderatly successful toward this end with their MM4 and DL4, but the sound quality was never really up to par.  That said, they are so versatile that many players–including touring pros–are willing to make the tone sacrifice in exchange for the versatilily.  

       That said, I think the starting point for any of the classic effects–chorus, phaser, flanger, tremolo–needs to be the classic effects pedals.  There's a reason those boxes have withstood the test of time, and continue to be modeled and copied and cloned.  

      So with respect to the question at hand, I would suggest going back to the classics as a starting point, i.e CE1,  CE2, Small Clone for Chorus; Phase 90, small stone, mutron for phase, etc.

       I suspect one of the previous posters got it right with the suggestion of some sort of low pass filter on the delayed signal, since this is what gives an analog chorus it's characteristic "warmth", similar to the effect a rolled-off high end has on analog delay.  Also, the ability to adjust delay time seems critical to tweaking the chorus to match changes in speed and depth.

      Thanks for asking! 

    • #128196
      IDeangelis
      Member

       One thing you all should be aware. We do *not* use any modeling technology. Our goal is THE Eventide chorus and some variations that might be closer in sound to a generic variety of chorus units…but they won't be exactly the same, pretty much like nothing else will sound like an Eventide. Be aware of this. Nevertheless improvements are possible and will be done.

      Thanks for suggestions. 

    • #128198
      guitarsandgolf
      Member

       It's a GOOD thing that you don't use modeling technology, which has proven to have a lifeless quality and never really approaches the original.  Nevertheless, by analyzing what makes analog effects sound so rich and pleasing to the ear, I think it's possible for a box like the ModFactor to EXCEED what we have come to expect from analog effects.  Evidently, you have accomplished this in the TimeFactor with the "Vintage" and "Tape" algorithms.  I think applying some of the TF "mojo" to the MF would make a lot of players' heads spin with giddiness…

    • #128202
      IDeangelis
      Member

      We called it "Vintage" Delay, not "That very brand" delay!

      It's a huge difference. Think about it.

      Wink

    • #128206
      18watt
      Member

      I'd like to offer a different opinion from the user community: I'm rather glad that Eventide's units aren't trying to be another CE-2 / Small Clone modeller. The most exciting thing to me about the WhateverFactor pedals is that they're approximating the Eventide sounds from the studio racks, in pedal format.

      I have a bunch of analog gear. Now, I get to have Eventide's studio algorithms. Very cool.

    • #128207
      IDeangelis
      Member

      YesYesYesYesYes

    • #128208
      mlabbee
      Member

      I agree and am fully on-board with the notion of unique effects – I'm just tryijng to get a better handle on how the control funcitons operate and starting with a known set of control points makes it a little easier to understand the differences between the Modfactor and other traditional effects I've used. The info here today has been very helpful – can't wait to get home and twiddle knobs 🙂

    • #128209
      guitarsandgolf
      Member

       I agree–to an extent.  I've got many of the classics as well, and I'd love to be able to scrap the whole pile.  I may be a dreamer, but it seems as though the MF–with a few improvements and a bit of tweaking– has the potential to replace most of those boxes.

       Can't we have both?  Is it too much to hope for?

      ; ^ ] 

    • #128210
      DGillespie
      Moderator
      Eventide Staff

      Hello Again,

      I think there is a middle way and I think at Eventide we try to follow it.  It would be folly to ignore past products; analog, digital, or acoustic; that have left an impression and stood the test of time.  We'd be stupid not to try to learn from these products and from our customers when they say they want a particular sound.  However I think Italo, I, and everyone else at Eventide is much more interested in making products that sound like music than products that sound exactly like some other product just because the Beatles used it.

      That being said; if you guys are looking for a particular sound, we want to not only get that sound for you, but do you one better and get you something that'll inspire you to write a new lick, a new song, or just have you spend a couple extra hours playing guitar with a smile on your face.

    • #128211
      jelyfinger
      Member

      I could not disagree more with chorus sound from the Modfactor! I personally think the choruses are stellar! Spend a few HOURS tweeking it before posting your OPINIONS and you might be surprised! I get really tired of hearing the catch phrases "very digital", "organic", "grainy", ect… on TGP. "Very digital" from a DIGITAL unit?….DUH! C'mon fellas, the answer is in all those knobs & flexibility Eventide provided us!

      Seems to be tons of peeps that need to spend more time playing guitar and less time picking pepper out of fly crap!

    • #128212
      IDeangelis
      Member

       No, you are not a dreamer. Just the perfect candidate for an H7600 or H8000FW.

    • #128213
      guitarsandgolf
      Member

       With all due respect, if that's your recommendation, you don't really understand why people are buying the ModFactor in the first place.  The whole allure of the Factor pedals is their compactness, simplicity, sound quality, and above all, the ability to AVOID using rack gear with a midi controller.

    • #128214
      18watt
      Member

      But… the ModFactor is fourteen times less expensive than the H8000FW.

      *suddenly, everyone figures out the value*

      🙂 🙂 🙂

    • #128215
      IDeangelis
      Member

       See, my position is not about arguing on which product is better. Of course I know the reason why people buy an Eventidepedal, being one of the creators of these devices.

      The first main reason is the possibility to buy Eventide sound at a much lower price. That's the big pull! I don't think avoiding the use of a MIDI controller point is really a selling point for the majority of people. We have seen, with great surprise, that most pedalusers today DO use MIDI more than before. Several digital pedal can store and recall many presets and use clock for delay/oscillator sync. These are the reasons why A MIDI controller becomes a must if more than a couple of pedals are used.

      The difference between rack abd pedal formats is only psycological. You can take a chip and put it in a small box for the floor. That's what happens really.

      The power and flexibility of a rack product remains unsurpassed though. Particularly  for Eventide processors as we invented the open platform in FX devices and continue a glorious tradition since early '90s.

      This aspect is not secondary as, provided an enormous dsp power, such open platforms allow the programmer, being an Eventide one or the end user, to build anything he likes.

      That's the reason why you can get MIDI Virtual Racks or Boss/TC/DynoMyPiano/Eventide chorusing in these units.

      We do not see a competition between our pedals and rack units. The pedals are an excellent way, finally, to enter a higher sound quality level…and it's possible that in time the user may incorporate a profesional rack unit in his/her rig. The opposite is also true, though. We have feedback from many Eventide rack gear aficinados using the pedals too these days. It's a complementary view in which every product has its uses.

      The technical reality is that we can do some mods and tweaks in our pedal and even add some dramatical changes to them, often propelled by constructive suggestions and terrific support from you, folks. We thank you for this!

      But  whatever we will be able to do won't be a strict effort to replicate specific products in terms of absolute fidelity. The addition of a sharper filter may be a welcome tool…but you, the musician, will need to work with these tools to get closer or right-on the sound you are after. The evidence of this is the many different opinions on how something sounds like. Everybody likes this OR that. There is no option to get all people happy with a single product in a pedal format. This is much more possible with our open platform rack units.

      So, please, don't look at my point in a negative way. Your pile of Vintagies will live on…and you should be happy for that….but at the same time your ModFactor will get closer to some of those units up to a certain extent.

      I'm showing you the whole picture, so that you can look at it!

      cheers

    • #128216
      Roobin
      Member

      I think one of the cool things about the *factor stompboxes is the 'middle road' talked about earlier. The flexibility allows a close simulation of classic sounds, with some tweaking, as well as some completely new, but amazing sounds. Ok, so there is a certain amount of experimentation, but that's all part of the fun and allows further discovery.

    • #128217
      Andy S
      Member

      Excellent thread ! But again, i want to reiterate I find it interesting that I can get a warmer more analog voiced chorus from my time factor than my modfactor…..

      I suggest again if there is a way to assign one of the knobs to act as a filter or tone knob through a software update and also to allow a shorter delay time ( i cant seem to dial out that very short slapback sound currently ) you will have improved the chorus sounds on these units greatly…….and thus it will be very easy to simulate a more vintage sounding, warm analog voiced chorus.

      Thanks ! It is great that users can post here with these suggestions !

    • #128218
      guitarsandgolf
      Member

       Thanks for the "big picture" reply, but I'm not sure I agree with your assessment of the "rack-o-phobia" phenomenon.  Many players, myself included, are either full- or par-time gigging musicians, who are looking for simplicity and portability, and simply refuse to add a rack road case to their setup.  Guitar/Amp/Pelalboard/Done!

    • #128219
      IDeangelis
      Member

       I haven't mentioned or implied anything about rack-o-phobia. This is not the point.

      Nor you need to add a rack to your road setup. But you may need to have several pedals anyway, as I'm sure you know already.

    • #128220
      IDeangelis
      Member

       Andy

      that's the same idea I share for the mod. The basis is simplicity as often proved that a dual delay line chorus sounds better than millions different variations on the theme. And the filter is key to some "analog" aspects in a simpler way. Also the delay range is what covers aspects that will surprise the ear in terms of variations of sound and known_products resemblance. 

      Thank you!

    • #128222
      DGillespie
      Moderator
      Eventide Staff

      Hi Andy,

      Don't worry it's already on my to do list.  As always we're compiling a list of feature requests for this box, and I've got warmer, more analogish chorus on it.  I know there is some other feedback in this thread as well, but please feel free to give us any more you have in regards to what you'd like to hear in a chorus.

      Dan

    • #128223
      guitarsandgolf
      Member

       This is awesome news!  I can't think of another company–in any industry for that matter–that is this responsive to the input of end-users.  Well done, gentlemen.  Very well done.

    • #128224
      DGillespie
      Moderator
      Eventide Staff

      Hi Italo,

      I'm sure you didn't mean to make this a racks vs. pedals discussion, but to point out the power of VSig to allow you to create your own effects any way you like.

      That being said, the power of the pedals are in their great sounds and ease of use which it's our job to deliver.  Hopefully we've done so with these pedals, but if there is something we've missed, we want to take the opportunity to add it if possible.

    • #128226
      IDeangelis
      Member

       Dan

      I'm sure my posting is extremely clear in that regard. I said *complementary products*.

      We can add to a certain extent but we also need to clarify that beyond that extent we also have other products that can add more options to the user choice and fullfill some people expectations. I don't think this is or should be a problem.

      Again….I'm presenting a complete picture!

    • #128227
      mlabbee
      Member

      One chorus sound that always blows me away is the intro to Carolyn's Fingers by the Cocteau Twins – there's some delay in there, too, so it's hard to pin down exactly what part is the chorus, but there is a "glassy" quality (?). I'm still fiddling with the Modfactor, but I I'm not sure what parameter creates that particular quality in a chorus -given the era, maybe it's an artifact of a compander filtering the signal in some way (no a high end roll off filter, though)? I'm not sure I can even describe the quality I'm looking for – the shimmer setting seems to get the tone, but not the spread and the organic gets the spread but not the tone? It's almost as if the MF is a little too subtle? I'll keep fiddling 🙂

      BTW – thanks for all the responses on this thread – they've been really helpful. I'm definitely exploring the MF quite a bit now and learning more and more about it. Falling in love with the undulator and modfilter

    • #117137
      afullerton
      Member

      I too have been struggling with the chorus sound. I'm still trying to find what works best. So far the biggest improvement for my taste has been to use the triangle waveform instead of the sine wave.

    • #128261
      starfish
      Member

      DGillespie:

      Hi Andy,

      Don't worry it's already on my to do list. As always we're compiling a list of feature requests for this box, and I've got warmer, more analogish chorus on it. I know there is some other feedback in this thread as well, but please feel free to give us any more you have in regards to what you'd like to hear in a chorus.

      Dan

      Hi Dan – I'm a bit late to this thread. As an earlier adopter, first run buyer and huge fan of the Timefactor, I really looked forward to the Modfactor. I was extremely disappointed that Polymod was eliminated at the last moment due to space restrictions (and adding Rotary in its place). I feel Polymod might have avoided much of the disappointment since it is much more lush.

      Being one of the first guys to point out the noise issue in the Timefactor, and having worked with you through it, I can testify that you take your customers seriously and have the commitment to deliver solutions to issues as they are raised. Thank you for that! No matter what happens, I have no doubt you will improve the chorus algo in the Modfactor.

      However, I would be very pleased if you would consider a special firmware release that would contain just the Polymod algorithm, and no others. Those of us who want the lushest of modulation could simply load Polymod with the firmware tool, and possibly return later to the other effects by loading back the main firmware. Polymod is what lured me to the Modfactor. it would be swell to have a limited firmware release, with no future updates, just a one-time Polymod load.

    • #128262
      starfish
      Member

      mlabbee:

      One chorus sound that always blows me away is the intro to Carolyn's Fingers by the Cocteau Twins – there's some delay in there, too, so it's hard to pin down exactly what part is the chorus, but there is a "glassy" quality (?). I'm still fiddling with the Modfactor, but I I'm not sure what parameter creates that particular quality in a chorus -given the era, maybe it's an artifact of a compander filtering the signal in some way (no a high end roll off filter, though)? I'm not sure I can even describe the quality I'm looking for – the shimmer setting seems to get the tone, but not the spread and the organic gets the spread but not the tone? It's almost as if the MF is a little too subtle? I'll keep fiddling 🙂

      BTW – thanks for all the responses on this thread – they've been really helpful. I'm definitely exploring the MF quite a bit now and learning more and more about it. Falling in love with the undulator and modfilter

      That was done with a pitch shifter at -10 cents left and +10 cents right. Though Guthrie owns and has used many Eventide products, that track used a Lexicon 480L unit into a pair of amaha d1500 delay units into Dimension D, IIRC. Not typical chorus per se.

      It is easy to reproduce that sound with Eventide Harmonizers (like the H3000 and Eclispe), and it sounds better that way to my ears. YMMV. 🙂 These days Robin has an H3000 D/SE in his solo touring rig.

    • #128263
      mlabbee
      Member

      I didn't know about the pitch shifting – very interesting. I'll have to give that a try.  The Dimnsion C is a 2-voice chorus, isn't it?

    • #128264
      starfish
      Member

      mlabbee:

      I didn't know about the pitch shifting – very interesting. I'll have to give that a try.? The Dimnsion C is a 2-voice chorus, isn't it?

      It was a Dimension D. I fixed the typo. It's more of a spatial type of effect than a chorus but the thing you're hearing in the track is the pitch shifting through the delay. The Dimension D just makes the audio "spread" seem wider.

    • #128265
      mlabbee
      Member

      Oh – that explains a lot. I used to have a Dimension D (the pedal version) and it was pretty remarkable in stereo (although completely useless in mono). I never could find a good explanation of what the Dimension D was actually doing to the signal – definitely not a traditional chorus effect. Anyone here know?

    • #128267
      guitarsandgolf
      Member

       Hi,  I just wanted to check back in, as there have been some developments on my end since my last post.

      First,  after working with D. in tech support–very helpful gal by the way–we determined that I had a defective "intensity" knob, so I sent it back to the retailer for an exchange.  Since the knob crapped out less than an hour into my first session with the pedal, I didn't really get a chance to tweak it to my heart's content.  Nevertheless, in that short time I think I was able to form a relatively clear picture of the capabilities of the chorus algorithms, since that's where I spent the majority of my time.  So I stand by my initial impressions of the chorus patches, which is to say that I'm still a bit disappointed.  However, after reflecting on my initial impressions with the benefit of hindsight, I think I might have figured out the problem.

       I–and I think I represent at least 90% of the players who will consider this pedal–run my rig almost exclusively in MONO.  I might be wrong, but I'll bet that the chorus patches were developed using a stereo setup.  This would go a long way toward explaining my disappointment with the chorus algorithms.  I've had experience with chorus pedals that sound anemic in mono, but come completely alive in stereo.  I'm not certain why, but I suspect it's for the same reason mix engineers check their mixes in mono.  Usually, if it works in mono, a mix will sound stellar in stereo–but not necessarily the other way around.  And until recently,  they were forced to check mixes in mono in order to insure that the mix would work for mono broadcast applications like TV.  

      So in any event–and please fogive the verbiosity–I think a chorus patch geared toward mono applications is in order.  Not a "model" of a vintage chorus, or a clone, or a copy, or whatever.  Just something that sounds lush and wide and deep in mono.   I suspect that the really great vintage analog choruses have alot in common, and achieve their results in more or less the same way, so this really shouldn't be brain surgery ; ^ ]

       Cheers,

      Barry 

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