H9 – multihead rhytmic pattern delay

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    • #113734
      dagjonas
      Member

       

      It’s the Keeley Dark Side, the delay emulates a multihead tape machine, with 4 heads. He seems to be on the 7th or 8th in the Tape Head Matrix, https://robertkeeley.com/woo/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/DarkSideInstructionsBackPRINTRev11.jpg

       

      So, can I get this rhythmic pattern with my H9? I tried the Multihead algo, but didn’t manage to get it.

    • #144520
      Bodde
      Participant
      dagjonas wrote:

      So, can I get this rhythmic pattern with my H9? I tried the Multihead algo, but didn’t manage to get it.

      Yes you can! You have to use the SpaceTime algo. I think it is the only algo that can do such rhythmic patterns.

      Set del A to 1/4 and del B to 1/8 dotted

      Delay level:10 Feedback 2: about 40

      Tempo=100

      I think this is the same pattern or very much alike.

    • #144524
      Bodde
      Participant

      I had a listen again to that video and it is slighly different. There seem to more ‘tape heads’ generating a bit different/longer rhythm. I don’t think that is possible on the H9 since it doesn’t have a mutliple/triple head delay. That’s my wish for a future H9 algo: a Binson Echorec style delay with multiple heads! would be great….

      But the SpaceTime algo can generate some interesting patterns.

    • #144526
      dagjonas
      Member

      It’s in the ballpark! Anyone else?

    • #144528
      brock
      Participant

      For a closest emulation of a multi-head tape machine, I’d go with the QuadraVox, or Resonator algorithm.  Either one will give you 4 delays, with variable ‘head spacing’, and the ability to turn each ‘head’  on or off.

      Resonator also provides 4 filters, & feedback capabilities.  QuadraVox is almost too clean, & any pattern repeats have to come from a 2nd delay line in series.  But it’s also the best algorithm to illustrate the concept:

      • PITCH A, B, C, D should always be at UNISON, or OFF; depending on the ‘Tape Head Matrix’ program.
      • DELAY GRP should be at .A.B.C.D, to simulate four equally-spaced tape heads.
      • Tap the DELAY D time for the maximum delay length.
      • KEY and MODE don’t matter.  PITCH MIX centered; MIX to taste.

      Then set each ‘head’ to UNISON or OFF, with the ‘Tape Head Mode Select’ chart translating like this:

      1. HEAD 1  =  PITCH A
      2. HEAD 2  =  PITCH B
      3. HEAD 3  =  PITCH C
      4. HEAD 4  =  PITCH D

      Resonator adds features; enhancing the realism.  It’s the same concept, presented in a slightly different way:

      • NOTE 1, 2, 3, 4 will be at OFF, or ‘ON‘ with a variable tuned filter position.
      • RHYTHM should be at 2.4.6.8 to simulate 4 equally-spaced playback heads.
      • Tap the LENGTH for the maximum delay time for all four ‘heads’.
      • RESONANCE isn’t absolutely required, but the high and low pass filters are still active.
      • FB1 is a more straightforward pattern regeneration.  FB2 will shift & degrade the pattern.
      • MIX to taste.  A tiny touch of REVERB adds some ‘glue’.

       

      The easiest place to fine-tune the ‘heads’ and filter positions is in the NOTE GRID view:

      1. HEAD 1  =  NOTE 1
      2. HEAD 2  =  NOTE 2
      3. HEAD 3  =  NOTE 3
      4. HEAD 4  =  NOTE 4

    • #144530
      brock
      Participant

      With Eventide algorithms, there’s another tactic to create ‘head stacking’ patterns.  You leave all four ‘heads’ active (on).  Then shift the DELAY GRP [QuadraVox] or RHYTHM [Resonator] to move the ‘heads’ themselves into different patterns.  In stereo, the ping pong delays will end up as dual mono stacks.

      But the head stacking doubles up the echoes in a given pattern position.  Obviously, this works best for program patterns that have one or two ‘heads’ active.  All of these images in both replies here reflect the Dark Side Program 7 pattern [HEAD 3 + HEAD 4]. 

       

      The DELAY GRP parameter (in the QuadraVox preset above) stacks PITCH A + PITCH B in the same head position, plus PITCH C + PITCH D in a second head position.  Below, the RHYTHM parameter stacks NOTE 1 + NOTE 2 at the 6th position, plus NOTE 3 + NOTE 4 at the 8th position.

       

       

      The added bonus in the Resonator algo is that you can stack multiple filters in those same ‘head’ positions.

    • #144534
      Bodde
      Participant

      Thanks Brock! will try your settings. Good job!

    • #144536
      dagjonas
      Member

      Wow! Fan-tas-tic reply! Thanks, will check it out.

    • #144538
      Bodde
      Participant

      Just checked your settings Brock. Great way to use the Quadravox and the Resonator! The Quadravox misses a feedback function so the pattern doesn’t get repeated (as you already stated). The Resonator comes more close. I have set the filter to B4 instead of B3 for brighter repeats.

      I listened to the first clip again and the pattern of the Keeley (programm 7 of that pedal) is different when it repeats itself. The Keeley generates this pattern:

      dotted 8th, 16th and then 8th, 16th, 16th (so the second repeat/beat is the 8th plus two 16th). The Resonator just keeps repeating the same dotted 8th plus 16th pattern over and over. I think because it is not in series??? Therefor it has a different vibe.  I don’t think that can be replicated with one H9?  So I am hoping for a series delay algo for the H9 in the future….

    • #144546
      dagjonas
      Member

      Actually, it’s not setting 7, it’s number 6. Keeley replied on Instagram. That would be head 2 and 3.

    • #144547
      Bodde
      Participant

      That strange. I am pretty convinced it is head 3 and 4. I have just tried with head 2 and 3 (note 2 and 3 in the Resonator) and it is not the same pattern as on that video.

    • #144548
      dagjonas
      Member

      Hmmm, then Keeley is wrong. I thought it looked like the pedal was set on setting 7 myself. Guess it is.

    • #144550
      brock
      Participant

      Truth be known, I didn’t reference the video much before posting presets.  I went with the head configurations.  You see, the video portion didn’t come up on my tablet, and the audio implied a faster alternate picking.  Now I see that there are a lot fewer notes actually being played.

      I wonder if there are individual feedback paths; one for each of the four heads?  I’ve only seen something like this in rack gear, VSTs, or the Boss SE-50 [8. Multi Delay, or 9. Multi Tap Delay].  That might explain the ‘verge of oscillation’ 16th notes that hang on.  If the heads are in series, the FilterPong algorithm might come closer.

      I *think* that the delays are in parallel.  Not much routing info at Keeley to confirm that.  But – if that’s the case – then most any of the H9 delay algorithms could come into play.  One advantage here is that we’re talking about only two of the four heads (in this example).  Divide the overall delay time into 4 equal parts. Plug in 2 of those values in combinations to hit just the right pattern.  Then adjust the feedback level on each of the two delays.

      That’s the theory, anyway.  The trick is that it has to be just the right delay algorithm.  There are a half dozen or more ways that feedback is configured among the H9 algos.  I just slapped together 3 or 4 examples in different delay algorithms, but none of the individual feedback configs seemed ‘just right’ to me.  Yet.

    • #144563
      Bodde
      Participant

      Yes it is not so easy to get that rhythm. It’s been boggling my mind for the last few days! I managed to programm it in my Axe fx by placing two delays in series. One with 1/4 and one with 1/8 dotted. I think that is very close to what you are hearing in the video. But I have no idea if this can be done in the H9? curious what you come up with Brock!

      Anyway my wish for a 4 head tape delay Binson Echorec style or like that Keeley Dark Side still stands! haha….I think that is the one missing in the H9 delay wise (and maybe a trully series delay).

    • #144582
      dagjonas
      Member

      Closes I’ve come is with the Echorec machine on my SA Nemesis. 

      I got the H9 Max, but for delay I mainly use the Nemesis and for a decent envelope filter a Leaf Audio Proton, hmmmmm :-/

      • #144588
        Bodde
        Participant
        dagjonas wrote:

        Closes I’ve come is with the Echorec machine on my SA Nemesis. 

        I got the H9 Max, but for delay I mainly use the Nemesis and for a decent envelope filter a Leaf Audio Proton, hmmmmm :-/

        Then you souldn’t have any trouble getting that exact rhythm from the video from the Memesis? Looks like a great delay that Memesis. What is it that you miss from the H9 delays? I have a H9 an Axe fx and a Catalinbread Belle Epoch and don’t really need any more delays. But everytime I see a new delay pedal a still have GAS…haha. I am delay addict! I really like the delays in the H9. They sound good are versatile and they are so easy to programm. Only thing that is missing is a multi head delay algo.

    • #144624
      Given To Fly
      Participant

      I understand why Keeley described the pedal the way he did but its confusing. This gets wonky to explain over the internet but I’ll try. The downbeat is not acounted for on the Matrix, only the delays. So to get started, the first chord in the example (it is program 7) is coming out of nowhere. Then the subsequent downbeat is in the empty 4th box on the Matrix. I’ll try to demonstrate with numbers:

      4|1 2 3 4|1 2 3 4|1 2 3 4

      This is what the Matrix would look like. The Bold 4 is the guitarist playing on the downbeat. The 2 and 3 are supposed to be italized and represent the delays. (With all this technology available, a pencil and a piece of paper would still clear things up so much faster. surprise ) A rhythm of “8th – 16th 16th ” is ultimately what you get and is very clear at the very beginning of the song. The delay times should be an 8th note and a dotted 8th note. Other variations are possible and will get you the same result. Keep in mind every sound the guitarist makes, on purpose and on accident,  also greats those delays. Combined with the reverb, you get a nice ambient sound with a core rhythm of |1 2 3 4|. Whether it sounds like that or looks like that depends largely on what the guitarist is playing. Also, given the nature of tape delay, the delays might not be spot on the beat either. (This would be a stylistic feature not a problem with the delay pedal.)

      Wait an minute, he is using 4 pedals?! frown I’m going to bed!  

      • #144634
        Bodde
        Participant
        Given To Fly wrote:

         A rhythm of “8th – 16th 16th ” is ultimately what you get and is very clear at the very beginning of the song. The delay times should be an 8th note and a dotted 8th note. Other variations are possible and will get you the same result.

        I think we mean the same thing but you describe it more complicated. The guitar is playing on the the down beat. The first repeat is coming on the fourth 16th note. The second repeat is coming on the second downbeat (so fifth 16th note). So you should program a 1/4 delay and a dotted 1/8 to get that. Not a 1/8 and a dotted 1/8 as you say.

        You are right about the 8th and two 16th pattern. But that is only after the first repeat. The first pattern is a dotted 8th followed by a 16th and than the second repeat is a 8th plus two 16th. Just I was describing in a previous post. I think that is the result of it being a delay in series or something. So this exact pattern is not possible on the H9 to my knowledge. Closest you can come is by using Brocks examples or using a 1/4 delay plus dotted 8.

        A student is mine is playing that Keeley piece now for a perfomance. So thank you for pointing out that video!

      • #144641
        Given To Fly
        Participant
        bodde wrote:

        Given To Fly wrote:

         A rhythm of “8th – 16th 16th ” is ultimately what you get and is very clear at the very beginning of the song. The delay times should be an 8th note and a dotted 8th note. Other variations are possible and will get you the same result.

        I think we mean the same thing but you describe it more complicated. The guitar is playing on the the down beat. The first repeat is coming on the fourth 16th note. The second repeat is coming on the second downbeat (so fifth 16th note). So you should program a 1/4 delay and a dotted 1/8 to get that. Not a 1/8 and a dotted 1/8 as you say.

        You are right about the 8th and two 16th pattern. But that is only after the first repeat. The first pattern is a dotted 8th followed by a 16th and than the second repeat is a 8th plus two 16th. Just I was describing in a previous post. I think that is the result of it being a delay in series or something. So this exact pattern is not possible on the H9 to my knowledge. Closest you can come is by using Brocks examples or using a 1/4 delay plus dotted 8.

        A student is mine is playing that Keeley piece now for a perfomance. So thank you for pointing out that video!

          

        Probably. cheeky

    • #144630
      dagjonas
      Member

      Thanks for your explanation!

      The fourth pedal is just a compressor, I think..

    • #144636
      dagjonas
      Member

      Here is Keeley running through all the delay settings from the matrix: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Wp9_v4UFXE

    • #144661
      Bodde
      Participant

      This thread inspired me for a new delay solo piece called “Light Side of the Sun”. I programmed the the same Keeley Dark Side delay in my Axe fx. You can see it here. Hope you like it! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MpKF_vSm9E

       

       

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