H90 not receiving MIDI CC with PC from Boss ES8

[kturner]

H90 Software v1.8.6.72, Audio v1.875, Panel M:2.100,  Control v1.7.11,  S/N XC-12211

Hello,

I am having an issue with the H90 MIDI implementation which becomes apparent when using it with a Boss ES8.

The ES8 allows two CC messages to be sent when sending a PC.

When I do this I get inconsistent results, often no change but when a value is changed it is never the correct results.

Example:

Using the Twister Echo program (set to PC 27), I assign the Wet Mix parameter of the Tape Echo to CC 3 and leave the parameter value at 44 and then save the program.
On the ES8 I set up a patch to send PC 27 with a CC 3 Value 0 (or whatever parameter value I want). Sticking with 0, I execute (send) the PC on the ES8 (along with the CC).
Results: The UI (in Control) shows the parameter change to 0 or some other random value, but the actual parameter value has not changed or it changed to the incorrect value.

Manually adjusting the Wet Mix will return the UI and parameter back to sync with each other.

Doing the same steps without the Control software connect has the same results of no change or incorrect change (minus the UI issue).

So the bottom line is that the H90 is not able to read those CCs that are sent along with the PC. It could be a timing issue or lack of a buffer in the MIDI receive circuit.

My Strymon pedals and Source Audio pedals MIDI works flawlessly in this scenario.

I bought the H90 to replace my 3 Strymon pedals, however this is a huge issue for live performances and now I’m not sure this pedal will work for me. Are there any viable workarounds for this issue or will Eventide be fixing this issue?

Thanks, Kevin

[joecozzi]

Hi turner,

I’m finding a similar issue in my testing. Weird. For me, sending the PC# and CC# at the same time does not work unless I make the MIDI controller send the CC# on release of the switch. Dedicating a footswtich for the CC# works fine. I’m going to share this with our team for more info.

[brock]

I seem to remember this happening with another device of mine (maybe the H9?).  With the PC & CC messages being received serially – a few milliseconds apart – perhaps the Program load is ‘swallowing’ the CC value.

I’ll try this later on, inserting a fixed delay time between messages.  Straightforward in a Morningstar, but I didn’t find a similar option in the Boss.  One possible workaround:  Trigger the “internal pedal” with the ES8 patch, and delay it with the adjustable ‘Tim’ parameter.  As a diagnostic, if anything.

[joecozzi]

Things work normally on my H9.

[kturner]

Thanks for the suggestions Joe and brock!

Unfortunately neither suggestion has worked for me. I tried changing the Switch Mode to ‘Release’ but that did not make any difference for me. I also tried adjusting the Patch Chg Time, 0 to 10 but that did not work either.

I also am having additional issues when assigning ES8 buttons to change MIDI parameters.

I’m using the Space Spiral program and what I want to do is bypass it during the chorus and back on for the verse, I have tried this with both P Act/Byp and P Act/Byp (M) with different results.

P Act/Byp requires 2 taps to enable/disable and my loops only require 1 tap.

P Act/Byp (M) has less consistent results but the most common result is the first tap is ignored and then it works with 1 tap, so that puts it out of sync with the rest of my ES8 program. This setting can also get very inconsistent sometimes not switching at all. I seams to get worse when multiple changes occur.

Here are the steps:

ES8: I select patch 8 and it loads the Space Spiral program.

Basic version; I set CNUM to enable/disable Space Spiral with either of the above commands ( playing clean amp, heavy fusion picking part).

I tap the ES8’s patch 8 button (CNUM) and I get the results mentioned above.

More complicated version; Additional changes are programmed to change with CNUM, I enable a loop with a distortion pedal and I turn the LED on for that loop.

The expected results should be, H90 is bypassed and the loop and LED become enabled.

 

I have an ES5 in the shelf, I’ll try and hook it up the weekend and see if I get the same results.

I pretty much use all the ES8’s advanced features and without getting into all the ES8 features, I’m just saying that has been my workflow  for years using the Strymon big 3.

So I am hoping the Eventide developers will give some love to the MIDI stability in the next firmware release :).

Thanks, Kevin

 

 

[joecozzi]

kturner wrote:

I tried changing the Switch Mode to ‘Release’ but that did not make any difference for me.

To be clear, the program change should happen “on press,’ while the CC value should be delivered ‘on release.’ In my experience, after the initial press, hold it for like a second before releasing in order to give the program time to load. I know this is not optimal, but we are looking at improving this process, nonetheless.

kturner wrote:

I’m using the Space Spiral program and what I want to do is bypass it during the chorus and back on for the verse, I have tried this with both P Act/Byp and P Act/Byp (M) with different results. P Act/Byp requires 2 taps to enable/disable and my loops only require 1 tap. P Act/Byp (M) has less consistent results but the most common result is the first tap is ignored and then it works with 1 tap, so that puts it out of sync with the rest of my ES8 program.

First off, it would be ideal to save the Space Spiral program in the active state it needs to be in from the start, which by default is “active.” If you need it to start out in a bypassed state, load the program, bypass it, and save it that way; now every time it loads the program it loads it bypassed.

For individual control of a Program’s active state, it’s best to use P Act/Byp (M) where sending a value of zero bypasses and sending a value of 127 activates.

[kturner]

Hi Joe,

Thanks for the info, yes I did try Act/Byp (M) first but when it did not work properly, I decided to try Act/Byp as well.

Joe wrote:

To be clear, the program change should happen “on press,’ while the CC value should be delivered ‘on release.’ In my experience, after the initial press, hold it for like a second before releasing in order to give the program time to load. I know this is not optimal, but we are looking at improving this process, nonetheless.

That’s good to know, I just tried holding down the button longer, however it still did not switch correctly (tried in both Switch Modes). I also hooked up my ES5 and got the same results for all these issues. I’m happy to try other workarounds or help if I can.

Joe wrote:

First off, it would be ideal to save the Space Spiral program in the active state it needs to be in from the start, which by default is “active.” If you need it to start out in a bypassed state, load the program, bypass it, and save it that way; now every time it loads the program it loads it bypassed.

As a Short term workaround I realize this is something that can be done (note that in this second case, it does start in the desired state). However I have to respectfully disagree that this would be a manageable solution. Many gigs I am using the same simple program with a basic reverb and a delay for 10 or 15 songs where I want to make minor changes (1, 2 ,3 parameters) for each and that may include starting in bypass or not or more often using preset bypass (M). I think it would be unrealistic to think I should make 10 or 15 separate version of the same program and try to manage remembering which one has which setting, not to mention eating up my user list. These are just a couple of examples but this issue is not at all limited to these 2 examples. There is not much point in offering CCs if you can’t use them to be efficient and effective . Making separate patches for small variations would be somewhat analogous to changing guitars every time I want to change my volume or tone on my guitar and that’s really not practical.

Anyway, I’m not trying to be a dick here, I love the sounds the H90 has and it is a very powerful box and I really want it to work for me. I just need to access that power via MIDI and am will to help bring issues I find to light. I have spent a good amount of time in the last 5 weeks trying to understand the H90 and make it a useful tool for me. I understand that probably most people don’t have that same workflow as I do but it is a very valid workflow and a good one.  I get the sense that you might be belittling these issues (I hope not). I guess it would be important to me to know if these are considered important issues or not to your development team?

Thanks,

Kevin

[joecozzi]

Hi Kevin,

I assure you I care very much about our customer concerns. I have no idea what I said makes you think I’m belittling your situation. I’m simply trying to understand your workflow. I never suggested creating multiple version of your programs. What I did suggest was dedicating a switch on your controller for sending active/bypass commands using the P act/byp (M) function. So after you load a program and it switches your loops for you, another switch would allow you to control the active state of the program.

[kturner]

My apologies, I took it as just use the workaround of duplicating program files.

 

Below is my workflow, I hope I wrote it out clear enough to understand, please ask questions on anything that is not clear.

Thanks, Kevin

 

Effect Workflow:

Why use a Switcher like the Boss ES 8?

For me there are 2 primary reasons to use an effects switcher:

1 – To be able to switch multiple devices on/off and change multiple effect parameters by pressing 1 button or expression pedal. This is critical when you need to change multiple things instantly while playing guitar and possibly singing, there is just no time to hit multiple switches because you would hear each transition separately. Plus it would be a major distraction for me. I just want to play guitar and sing a bit without trying to tap dance on my pedal board. I try to fit as much into 1 bank as practical, so I take advantage of the ES 8’s advanced features that allow me to repurpose switches.
2 – To take unused pedals out of the signal path and have the ability to change the order of the loops.

Pedal Board Layout: 

Front left to right – H90, ES 8, Dunlop Vol/Expression pedal, Mimi Cry Baby wah wah

loop number and device: 1- Wah, 2 – UA Max compressor, 3 – Rockbox BoilingPoint, 4 – Wampler Euphoria, 5 – Hendrix Fuzz, 6 – Fulltone OCD, 7 – Source Audio EQ2, 8 – H90. Keep in mind that the loop order has no bearing on how the patches are set up for Memory Mode.

Notes:

– I run in Mono and I use a Shure Wireless system.
– I only use the H90 in loop 8 when I’m using an amp without an FX loop. Otherwise I go from H90 ch1 to my amp FX loop (I don’t care for the 4 cable method).
– The EQ2 is split stereo and can have independent outputs. So loop 7 is for front end EQing and the second output goes into the H90 ch 3 insert for routing within the H90.
– I primarily use the editing apps on my Mac rather than editing and programming on the devices.

Studio:

In my studio my amps, speakers, effects and attenuator are connected through a de Lisle Amp-Speaker Selector switch.

8 amps, 6 cabinets, FX loop and attenuator.

Gigs:

For gigs I usually take 1 amp head and 1 cabinet and my pedal board.

ES 8 Loops: I’m just going to show the first loop to give you an idea what I do and this is sort of a hybrid work in progress version that I use with my Strymon pedals (since the H90 MIDI is not able to do these things at this time).

For simplicity I’ll just refer to a configuration where the amp has an effects loop:

ES 8 Loop 1 default Memory Mode – This is my clean channel. Output buffer ON +4dB (I only do this on loop 1), Amp on clean ch, front end only Wah Wah enabled, H90 program, preset 1 Is some kind of delay in series with preset 2, a spring reverb (or plate). I will often send a CC along with the PC to have the delay bypassed or set to a low mix level and control it with the expression pedal (through MIDI) or one of the repurposed ES8 buttons.

Repurposing ES 8 buttons

CNUM I always use CNUM as a boost or gain for a lead sound, so it may enable the compressor or one of the OD/distortion pedals or the Amp lead ch and I may enable the EQ at that same time and/or enable the delay on the H90. Also if I’m using my Boogie MkV 35, I can enable the Solo mode on the amp, which is basically a boost on the amp.

MUTE  I pretty much always repurpose the Mute button, I might use the EQ to scoop the mids a little for when the vocals come in which helps the vocals cut better in the mix. Most of the time I’ll just lower the volume on my guitar but if I’m playing some funk rhythm or something else where you can’t get to the volume, it can be really useful. I usually don’t use my volume foot pedal because I can’t get as accurate and besides I use it as an expression pedal a lot. I can also use it to change other parameters on the EQ or H90.

BankD/BankU I can make a program change and stay in the same patch. However it is not a toggle, so if you want to go back and forth, you’ll need to use 2 buttons. This is cool because I can still use my other repurposed buttons and I don’t have to use up another patch.

So lets say I am using the Mute as mentioned above, then I would use the BnkD and BnkU buttons to change the PC back and forth. So for example I’m playing that nice clean sound with reverb and a little delay but the bridge has a chorus (or some other modulation) on it. So now if I don’t use my tricky PC with the repurposed buttons, I would need to eat up another patch on the ES 8. Also, if I program things correctly my expression pedal would control the mix on the program with the delay and maybe the speed or depth on the chorus program.

How you do this on the ES8:

Go to the CTL/EXP tab and set any buttons that you want to repurpose to OFF (You can’t repurpose the Memory/Manual button).
Go to the MIDI tab and use a transmit block and set it to Manual (leave the default block in auto) and set up your PC for the chorus program and you can also send CCs at the same time if you want. Then use another Transmit block to duplicate the default block but set to Manual instead of Auto.
Go to one of the Assign tabs and set SRC = BnkD, Target = Pat.M:PMIDI3 and set up another assign to go back to the previous program.

This is still a work in progress and I would only do the Bank button feature on 1 or 2 patches per bank. I will probably hook up an external switch to do this in the future.

Also the H90 buttons are available to bypass/enable or whatever I want to program them for. I have not gotten into programming the HotKnob and HotSwitches yet and I’m sure they will be helpful.

When using the controls on the H90 I must take caution not to get out of sync with the ES 8 programming since the ES8 is the center of controlling all my effects. Consistency with a complicated system is the best way to make it usable in real time.

[joecozzi]

kturner wrote:

I tried changing the Switch Mode to ‘Release’ but that did not make any difference for me. I also tried adjusting the Patch Chg Time, 0 to 10 but that did not work either.

Hi Kevin, I’m concerned my instructions were not clear. I filmed a video of what I meant. Perhaps this is a workaround for the PC and CC simultaneous issue we’ve uncovered. Is this what you tried?

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ee1we6vhlp0hqm3c82reg/Press-Release.MOV?rlkey=pumj6yzezkq3bmfp62vrfdp1b&st=dall3o6v&dl=0

[kturner]

Hi Joe,

Thanks for the video!

I think the Push/Release option on the ES8 is a global setting that sends everything either when the button is pushed or released. I don’t think there is an option to send PC on push and CC on release but that sounds like a great feature (see attached screenshot). So if I am in Push mode, I push the button down and everything is sent and when I release nothing will happen. If I am in Release mode, nothing happens until I release the button and then everything is sent.

If I’m wrong about that or misunderstood, please let me know. If I’m correct and you have some diagnostic software, I’d be happy to run it. I do have MIDI Monitor but I have never figured out how to get a snapshot of several seconds of MIDI data.

Thanks,

Kevin

[kturner]

Here is a short video of MIDI Monitor when I press the button on the ES8. If you start and stop it right away, you can see the MIDI messages. Ch7 is my EQ2 pedal and Ch8 is the H90.

I say button down after I actually push the button down but I say button up at the correct time. Nothing happens at button up. If I am reading this correctly, the ES8 is sending the CC one clock cycle after sending the PC.

Thanks, I hope this helps.

Kevin

[kturner]

I did a little more investigation on this today, I have video if you would like it but here is what I found.

It does not matter if I hold the button, am in Push or Release mode, or Patch Time change is increased.

When changing a patch on the ES8 – it sends the CC 1 clock cycle after PC and if there are 2 CC, the second one is sent 1 clock cycle after the first CC.

If the ES8 Editor is open, then there will be a SysEx command sent 3 clock cycles after the last CC.

If the H90 Control app is open, it will send a SysEx command 4 clock cycles after the Roland SysEx (or CC if the ES8 Editor is not open) and send another SysEx 4 cycles after the first SysEx and a third SysEx 45 cycles after the previous one.

I hope this is helpful.

Kevin

[brock]

Hey, Kevin.  It sounds like PC + CC1 + CC2 are sent in very quick succession (2+3+3 bytes = a few mS + any overhead).  And yes – from reading that ES-8 classic Boss-style manual – it is either-or with a Push or a Release action, unlike the Morningstars.  The ES-8 appears to be a full-featured device, but I don’t have one here to test.  So these are speculative solutions that may / may not contribute:

Expanding on my suggestion above.  Don’t use the Patch level Ctl 1-2 parameters.  Just send the PC, and use the Assign parameters to (theoretically) delay any subsequent CC messages.

Assign

• Src -> INT
• Cate -> MIDI
• Target -> CC
• Min Max -> probably to the same value?
• Ch -> 8
• CC# -> appropriate CC number
• Trig -> PAT
• Tim -> vary this delay value 1-100 to find the ‘sweet spot’ for recognizing the CC
• Crv -> FST, maybe LIN

Target List

• When Cate is set to MIDI – appropriate CC value

If all else fails, you may be able to substitute E.CTL for the CC value(s).  Boss EXP 1,2 to H90 EXP1 and/or EXP2.  It’ll cost you one more TRS cable.

 

[kturner]

Hi Brock,

thanks for the workaround! I never thought of using the INT Assign, it took a little fiddling but I did get it to work. The footswitch works too but not quite what I was looking for.

I’m still hoping that you can fix the issue of sending the CCs at the same time as the PC, it’s just a much cleaner way to do it and take up less of the available configuration function in the ES8.

I little side tibet of info; Boss has not been very good at naming conventions between the device and the editing software. So, CATE (Category) and TARGET are actually the same parameter. On the hardware unit it’s called CATE and in the editing software it’s called TARGET, very confusing and it took me a while to figure it all out when I was first learning the ES8.

I’m not in my studio right now so I can’t give you all the details of how I set it up and the various naming conventions but if you are interested, let me know and I’ll post the details.

Kevin

[brock]

Very nice.  As you could probably tell, I was just winging a potential workaround from that manual.  And I am all-too-familiar with decoding Boss/Roland documentation.

Waveform control, that I have access to.  The INT ‘pedal’ … I’ve seen similar standalone boutique devices, and it’s something I would like to see integrated into the H90.  Seems very versatile.

I do.love learning about devices I don’t have, so yes – post the recipe when you can.  It may help Eventide to report the TIM value … at the smallest amount you can get consistent results from.

Not that an arbitrary value between 1-100 means anything by itself,  but it may help testing in the H90.  Once it’s known what the TIM value is equivalent to in milliseconds, that is.

Thanks for reporting back.  I always wonder how these things play out in real world application.

[kturner]

I finally got back to doing more MIDI tests. Attached is a MIDI Monitor video using the ES 8. H90 is Ch 8, CC 3 is wet mix (initial set at 26), ES 8 Internal ramp from 26 to 0.

Maybe you can tell better than I can from this but it looks like either 4 clock cycles or 6 clock cycles for the H90 to be able to read a CC command.

Kevin

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