H90 USB noise – Design Error

[ntrueman]

Ok I read a number of historical complaints regarding usb induced noise regarding the H90 on this forum, to be honest it looks like Eventide are not taking a genuine error seriously. For a $900 pedal I expect better. This issue needs to be addressed.

The noise makes it impossible for me to leave the USB connected while I select effects directly from the PC which means a significant feature which is advertised does not work correctly. I have tried independent power, using a USB hub, isolators and splitters to no avail. My conclusion is that this is an error in the product since why would a properly designed audio product allow a noisy power supply, ground loop etc. to influence the audio so badly. I am staggered that Eventide would release a product with such an obvious error which must have been spotted in Test. Also if it performs this badly in my studio there is no way I could trust this product to work correctly in the world of live performances where things are always less than perfect.

I would like your development department to investigate and determine how this issue can be mitigated in the short term for current owners AND work on a complete resolution to the issue. Hopefully you can resolve this in software and provide an upgrade OR if it turns out to be in hardware, provide an exchange program/or a return for modification program. This will cost money but it’s better than losing your standing and credibility in the market.

[joecozzi]

ntrueman wrote:

I would like your development department to investigate and determine how this issue can be mitigated in the short term for current owners

Connecting to the pedal via Bluetooth from a computer or iPad will make noise free editing possible.

[ntrueman]

I had previously dismissed Bluetooth after scanning Section 7.3 which doesn’t list PC/Windows support.

 

Looking at the manual,

10.1.2. Connection¶
H90 Control can connect to your devices in two ways:

All devices can connect directly using USB, using the included USB cable.
The H90 can connect wirelessly, using Bluetooth. Checkout the Bluetooth section of the user manual for instructions and troubleshooting.

I assume ‘the bluetooth section’ is section 7.3, if so, 7.3 does not mention PC/Windows connectivity with Bluetooth at all, is this formally released and supported?

7.3

The H90 can pair and connect to your Mac, iPad, and iOS device via Bluetooth. This allows you to connect to H90 Control (Mac/iPad only) or send MIDI messages via a DAW or 3rd party MIDI control app.

7.3.5. Bluetooth System Requirements¶
Device must support Bluetooth LE 4.2+ to use H90 Control. BLE 4.0+ will work for standard MIDI only. Earlier versions of Bluetooth/Bluetooth Classic will not work and are not supported.
iPads must run iPadOS 15 or later to use H90 Control
Macs must run macOS 11 (Big Sur) or later.
Some Macs running macOS 12 (Monterey) have known issues pairing with Bluetooth MIDI devices. If you are having trouble pairing your device on Monterey, updating to macOS 13 (Ventura) has been known to resolve these issues.

I’m probably missing something? But the manual is not stating that bluetooth to PC/Windows is supported. Please advise.

[joecozzi]

When I said computer I meant Mac. I should have been more specific. Bluetooth on PC is currently not supported.

[ntrueman]

Ok so if usb is unusable and bluetooth would provide a solution if pc/windows were supported, why wouldn’t Eventide make it a priority to provide support for pc/windows?

Please escalate this issue since right now a key feature does not work correctly and the only course of action open to me is to return the product for a full refund. Something neither of us would prefer.

 

[tbskoglund]

Hello,

Sorry to hear of the issues you are having.

It is correct that we don’t support a Bluetooth connection for Windows, but since your original issue was noise when using the USB connection, it’d be best to troubleshoot that issue further. There are many users who don’t experience noise issues when connected via USB, so there may be something in your setup that can be changed to resolve this.

You mentioned the following: “I have tried independent power, using a USB hub, isolators and splitters to no avail.”

• What exactly do you mean by “independent power”? In order to avoid ground loops, you should try to have your Amp/monitors, guitar pedals, and computer all connected to the same power source.
• How is the H90 being powered?
• How is the H90 connected to your amp?
• Have you tried using the H90 with no other pedals in the signal chain?
•  A USB hub vs a direct USB connection shouldn’t make a difference here, unless the hub is advertised as some sort of ground loop isolator. A direct connection is best for troubleshooting the issue further.
• Which isolator did you try?
• What do you mean be a splitter? Please be precise.

Once we have some more information, we can help you troubleshoot the noise issue further.

Thanks for your patience.

[sled]

In my experience, it’s simply possible for audio over USB to experience interference in some scenarios. Eventide doesn’t necessarily have any power over this, and the culprit is usually the cable which acts as the “antenna” picking up the interference. The quickest way you can try to mitigate this is to add a ferrite bead to your USB cable. You could even add two of them (one at each end of the cable). You can get a big pack of them in different sizes online for pretty cheap and they just snap on to the cable. Takes two seconds.

Maybe the Eventide staff here could answer, but how important is it to use a USB 3.0 port for the H90? I understand the unit itself has a USB-C port, but is there actually any performance loss if you connect it to a 2.0 port on your PC (assuming you have a PC with one available). USB 3.0 is actually somewhat more susceptible to interference than USB 2.0 due to its 5gbps broadband frequency overlapping with the 2.4Ghz wireless spectrum. Slower USB 2.0 doesn’t have this problem, and some devices actually recommend specifically using a 2.0 port because the faster 3.0 speeds aren’t necessary and you can avoid the interference issue.

Not sure if this is viable for the H90 though. It might need the 3.0 speeds.

[ntrueman]

Here are the answers to your questions…

What exactly do you mean by “independent power”? In order to avoid ground loops, you should try to have your Amp/monitors, guitar pedals, and computer all connected to the same power source. ANS. I have tried running my laptop from internal batteries and by USB PSU.

ANS. By ‘Same power source’ do you mean the same 125v mains outlet? If so, that is what I am doing. Clearly the laptop has a USB PSU, The H90 has it’s own PSU and the AMP has an internal PSU. When I tried the splitter I also tried connecting a usb psu to the PSU lead (see below).

How is the H90 being powered? ANS. Via the Eventide switched mode PSU supplied with the pedal.
How is the H90 connected to your amp? ANS. Via a 1/4 mono male to male cable.

Have you tried using the H90 with no other pedals in the signal chain? ANS. Yes, the noise is injected into the signal out path regardless of whether that goes directly to the amp or to the next pedal.

A USB hub vs a direct USB connection shouldn’t make a difference here, unless the hub is advertised as some sort of ground loop isolator. A direct connection is best for troubleshooting the issue further. ANS. OK, I am now using a direct connection USB between the H90 and the laptop. Unplug, audio is silent, plug the USBC in and it’s as noise as hell.

Which isolator did you try? ANS. iFi iDefender Max – eliminates All Distracting hum and Noise in Your Computer Audio System – Enhanced Resolution and Dynamics – Compatible with USB 3.0
What do you mean be a splitter? Please be precise. ANS. MOGOOD 60W USB C Splitter Cable, 2-in-1 USB-C Male to Dual USB-C Female.

[ntrueman]

Answer to SLED. Ferrite beads are used to stop unwanted RF radiation from causing noise in cables, this does not appear to be RF noise it is noise passing between the laptop and the H90 via the 5V/ground. I can recreate the noise but simply connecting the outer metal of the USB C connector to the outer metal of the USBC socket i.e. without connecting the center conductor.

Inside a standard USB cable there are four conductors: red (5V), black (ground), white (data-) and green (data+). The key is that the 5V line coming from the computer is usually “dirty”, with superimposed spurious noises caused by the equipment itself and its peripherals. This dirt connects to the audio system, generating hums, hisses, or interference that sometimes vary depending on the processor load or even the fan speed.

This phenomenon is not exclusive to any particular brand: sooner or later, many users will end up experiencing it. The truly frustrating thing is that it ruins the experience and quality., especially in recording, live or critical monitoring environments where hum is no longer acceptable.

In addition, there is an aggravating factor: some noises increase when touching metal parts, strings, or even the floor, depending on how the masses are referenced. If the system “notices” your body, it can vary the level of humidity., something that fits with the typical 50/60 Hz and its harmonics when there are ground loops or potential differences between equipment.

In my humble opinion, the H90 should isolate itself from the USB Power supply. Since the H90 does not need USB power as it’s powered independently. All the H90 needs to do is pass the USB data stream and not allow any of the USB noise to get anywhere near the audio paths within the H90. This makes me think this is a bad design flaw. If I were them I’d get the blue tooth connection working to windows asap.

[ntrueman]

Answer to SLED. Ferrite beads are used to stop unwanted RF radiation from causing noise in cables, this does not appear to be RF noise it is noise passing between the laptop and the H90 via the 5V/ground. I can recreate the noise but simply connecting the outer metal of the USB C connector to the outer metal of the USBC socket i.e. without connecting the center conductor.

Inside a standard USB cable there are four conductors: red (5V), black (ground), white (data-) and green (data+). The key is that the 5V line coming from the computer is usually “dirty”, with superimposed spurious noises caused by the equipment itself and its peripherals. This dirt connects to the audio system, generating hums, hisses, or interference that sometimes vary depending on the processor load or even the fan speed.

This phenomenon is not exclusive to any particular brand: sooner or later, many users will end up experiencing it. The truly frustrating thing is that it ruins the experience and quality., especially in recording, live or critical monitoring environments where hum is no longer acceptable.

In addition, there is an aggravating factor: some noises increase when touching metal parts, strings, or even the floor, depending on how the masses are referenced. If the system “notices” your body, it can vary the level of humidity., something that fits with the typical 50/60 Hz and its harmonics when there are ground loops or potential differences between equipment.

In my humble opinion, the H90 should isolate itself from the USB Power supply. Since the H90 does not need USB power as it’s powered independently. All the H90 needs to do is pass the USB data stream and not allow any of the USB noise to get anywhere near the audio paths within the H90. This makes me think this is a bad design flaw. If I were them I’d get the blue tooth connection working to windows asap.

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