Harpeggiator: can not get it in time with beat

[Bodde]

I have been experimenting for a few hours with the Harpeggiator on my H9. But I have trouble getting it in sync with my playing and beat. No matter how I set it (tempo on or off). It feels like there is some glitch or delay on the initial attack. Or that is doesn't re trigger or something. The seconds or so it is not in sync but after that it is sync. When I try to play along with a metronome this is very noticeable.

I am not using MIDI or whatsoever. What am doing wrong or missing?

[Bodde]

No Love for the Harpeggiator? or has this problem been addressed before?

[Bodde]

Don't want to nag about this but hopefully someone can help me with this cause I can't get it to work well and therefor stopped using the Harpeggiator. Might be interesting to know for other users as well.

[tommasoferrarese@mac]

Yes, I have the same problems, AND I don't get a stable synchronization over MIDI clock either. pretty much unusable, as it is, in a real recording or live situation. is it possible that nobody from Eventide chimes in about this?

It's almost impossible to get this thing working on time.

[gkellum]

Hi tommasoferrarese@mac:

Yes, I have the same problems, AND I don't get a stable synchronization over MIDI clock either. pretty much unusable, as it is, in a real recording or live situation. is it possible that nobody from Eventide chimes in about this?

Hi guys, we'll see if we can reproduce what you're describing. This is on the H9 running the latest H9 release for the Looper, i.e. 5.1.0[3]?

[Bodde]

Thanks for joining in! Yes latest H9 software. No midi. Problem is that the first note/attack is not in time with the rhythm. It has some unreliable glitch and therefore it is impossible to get a tight rhythm. I have tested this by trying to play along with a metronome or drum machine.

[gkellum]

bodde:

Problem is that the first note/attack is not in time with the rhythm. It has some unreliable glitch and therefore it is impossible to get a tight rhythm. I have tested this by trying to play along with a metronome or drum machine.

Ok, we tried to reproduce this problem… With the Harpeggiator the intention was that you would use the performance switch to retrigger the sequence. Since the H9 doesn't have an onboard performance switch, you need to hook up an aux switch or MIDI footswitch to trigger the performance switch instead.  We set this up and tested it against the latest release, and everything was working as expected.  Maybe, you guys were expecting this to work in some other way?

[Bodde]

I don't have a performance switch. Nor do I want to add yet another extra piece of gear. Is there another way to get it in time or to retrigger without a performance switch? An added retrigger button (sotware) or something?

[Bodde]

I am sorry. I only see now that there actually is a restart button in the software. Totally missed that! Will have another try with the harpegiator later this week and see if I can get it in time now. Thanks!

[Dario]

With the PitchFactor I will not need the external aux switch to trigger the new arpeggiator sequence, right?

[brock]

You can use the Flex switch in Play mode when the PitchFactor is set to the HarPeggiator algorithm.  It will restart the sequences.  If your timng is good, sequences can be restarted 'creatively'.

For MIDI users, it might be a good time to reconsider a MIDI Start/Continue message triggering (or even sent by) the Restart function.  The groundwork was laid in the new TF/H9 Looper algorithm.  I suppose there's a workaround in sending a parallel CC message to the Flex function.

[Bodde]

gkellum:

With the Harpeggiator the intention was that you would use the performance switch to retrigger the sequence.

Could there be a automatic retrigger function option in any possible update? So that the harpeggiator gets retriggered automatically at the initial attack. My Axe fx II has that option (called RUN). You can attach a modifier to that 'button' to retrigger the sequence automatically on each new note. So no AUX switch is necessary. Would make the harpeggiator more useful to me.

[tommasoferrarese@mac]

I second that.. also I think that some kind of latency compensation for midi clock would be great, at a global level.. something that could sync any time based to the midi clock received by H9 but allowing manual compensation of any possible latency in midi clock transmission..

[brock]

bodde:

Quote:

Could there be a automatic retrigger function option in any possible update? So that the harpeggiator gets retriggered automatically at the initial attack. My Axe fx II has that option (called RUN). You can attach a modifier to that 'button' to retrigger the sequence automatically on each new note. So no AUX switch is necessary. Would make the harpeggiator more useful to me.

I'll admit that I had my doubts about the usefulness of that FR.  But it turned out to be a much cooler effect than I thought it would be.  As an experiment, I set up my Lexicon MPX1 as a source of MIDI triggers for the PitchFactor.

Sending a one shot LFO pulse of a CC message, I was able to trigger the Restart function on the HarPeggiator.  The pulse went from a CC value of 127 to 0; mimicking a momentary switch.  It's fast enough to reset the Flex function before the next incoming note.  The pulse itself was triggered by audio input.  Voila!  HarPeggiator sequence retriggering on every note.

It got even better by setting up the audio envelope to control the sequencing rate.  If the MIDI CC minimum & maximum values are inverted, the Harpeggiator retriggered on every note, and the rate gradually slowed down from rapid sequencing down to barely moving on sustained notes.

If you use only the Groove or FX sections, this kind of setup turns into highly controllable slicers and filter sequencers.  I don't know if your feature request is ever going to happen, but thanks for the inspiration.

[tommasoferrarese@mac]

Even after the latest updates, no stable sync to midi clock.

I know that it’s possible to reset the pattern manually, but c’mon!! Boss SL20 syncs flawlessly, and every other algorhythm syncs flawlessly, while arpeggiator, which is the one that mostly needs it, doesn’t!

Is there any chance Eventide would investigate any further on the issue?

 

There is now a few of us reporting this problem..

Thanks,

Tom

[Bodde]

Sorry to resurect this topic. But I still think the Harpeggiator algo can be improved by an automatic retrigger on the initial attack. It with will be much easier to sync with the beat that way. It is very hard to sync now even with the restart function. That’s why I stopped using this algo.

[909one]

I am actually very curious about this as well, I actually sold my H9 a while ago, but am dearly missing the device just for this Algo. I was just considering buying another H9 just for this purpose. So the Harpeggiator doesn’t correctly sync to an incoming MIdi Clock Sync? If this is the case, I won’t be buying another H9, as I intended to use the H9 to sync along wtih some analog synth sequencers that are outputting Midi clock, the Korg Minilogue. 

Please advise.

[wedelich]

909one wrote:

I am actually very curious about this as well, I actually sold my H9 a while ago, but am dearly missing the device just for this Algo. I was just considering buying another H9 just for this purpose. So the Harpeggiator doesn't correctly sync to an incoming MIdi Clock Sync? If this is the case, I won't be buying another H9, as I intended to use the H9 to sync along wtih some analog synth sequencers that are outputting Midi clock, the Korg Minilogue. 

Please advise.

The last update added restarting of the sequence using MIDI START, and to the best of my knowledge we've greatly improved our MIDICLK syncing performance since we released Looper on H9.  I haven't explicitly tested in a while, but it was rock solid when I did the work to add MIDI START sync.  I remember leaving Looper (which runs the same MIDICLK engine) running synced to a drum machine over a weekend, and when I came back Monday it was still in sync.  So there's a bullet point to sway you back into the fold 🙂

[mr. limbic]

I’ve had the same problem in the past and my band plays to a click track so I’ve needed certain presets using the harpeggiator to be right on the money. Do you use an expression pedal? The only way I’ve found to “retrigger” is to set my expression pedal to control the mix (will have to check if any other parameters). If I go from heel to toe and land on the 1 then it’s always in time. Obviously this depends on how you are using it as you may not be able to do this for whatever riff your playing.

[Kai-vD]

I’m thinking of purchasing a H9 Max. But it is very importent for me, that the Harpeggiator runs easily in sync to a external MIDI-clock. I’m worried about all the threads about problems with that.

Have these problems been solved by FW-updates in the meantime, or…?

[wedelich]

Kai-vD wrote:

I'm thinking of purchasing a H9 Max. But it is very importent for me, that the Harpeggiator runs easily in sync to a external MIDI-clock. I'm worried about all the threads about problems with that.

Have these problems been solved by FW-updates in the meantime, or…?

As far as I know we've resolved the issues with Harpeggiator. You might need to manually retrigger or use MIDI START to get the phase of the sequence correct with a song (obviously).  We explicitly fixed a number of MIDCLK bugs when we did Looper on H9 (as I stated above in 2017).  I remember specifically: 

– fixing a bug where we would occasionally drop a MIDICLK tick (every few minutes or so) due to a race condition in the memory access (there are supposed to be 24 per beat).  

– adding extensive statiscial filtering to the MIDICLK tick stream in recovering BPM 

– adding MIDICLK Start as retrigger for the Harpeggiator sequence.  

[bobspencermusic]

Hi,

 

I can’t understand how the rhtyhms in the harpeggiator relate to the click I’m sending (via midi clock)

Could you tell me the settings in Harpeggiator where the rhythm will line up with the click? When I change the tempo in my DAW, Harpeggiator also changes to the correct tempo, so there a no problems there.

I have tried it with:

Everything in the right panel set to 0 except Rhythm A, which I have on 05 as that’s an even division of the 16 steps in the sequence. Dry/Wet is set to 100% wet. Mix between A and B is A10, Dynamics 0.

I have tried different lengths, but nothing lines up. It seems like it’s playing to a completely different tempo.

I want to be able to make live sequeces synced with other instruments, with midi clock coming from a DAW.

 

Thanks,.

[bobspencermusic]

I had the pitch sequence turned off. Even if I did have it on, I should hear some relationship between the sequence and the tempo – it’s not like there was a cross rhythm, it’s a completely different tempo.

I tried different lenghts including 1/4. What is the length describing? The lenght of the entire sequence fitting into 1 1/4 note of the tempo? I know that would be way too fast – just looking for an explanation. The tap light on the pedal is flashing in time with the midi clock, but the sequence is not in time.

FYI, I did manage to get it very close to in time by setting the midi clock to 150 BPM and manually setting the tempo in Harpeggiator to 204 BPM.

[bobspencermusic]

Thanks for the info.

 

OK so if that’s the case then the rhythms I getting don’t follow that.

I have everything off except for rhtyhm sequence – to make it easy to hear what’s going on. I put that on 05, which looks like an even division of all 16 steps. The rhythm I hear has no relationship to the midi clock BPM I’m sending, but the H9 is following the tempo when I make changes to the MIDI clock tempo. The tap light is also flahsing in time with the MIDI clock tempo.

Other algorithms with time like delay and tremolo are locking in correctly with the MIDI clock.

When I set the MIDI clock BPM to 150, I found manually setting the Harpeggiator tempo to 204 got it in time.

Anyt thoughts as to what’s going on here?

[bobspencermusic]

I tested this just after my last post.

 

When the MIDI clock isn’t connected I can get it to keep time correctly with a metronome. I set the metronome to 120 bpm and the bpm on the harpeggiator to 120 and it worked as it should. I then connected the H9 to MIDI clock (also on 120bpm)  and left all settings in the harpeggiator the same but the rhythms were different.

[bobspencermusic]

Hi,

 

Any thoughts on this?

It seems like midi clock is causing the problem. I have tried it with different sound cards and DAWs so I doubt the problem is there. When all settings remain the same on Harppegiator and the only I change is turning Midi input clock off and on, the speed of the rhythms change to something completely different.

It would be great to get some help on this as I had hoped to have this already up and running by now.

I have midi input clock enabled.

I have tried it with the midi clock filter off and on. This doesn’t make any difference.

I have also tried with midi output clock off and on. Also no difference.

I have the latest update.

I have tried with different midi cables. 

Thanks,

[camn]

OK.. forgive me if these were answered.. but I would trouble shoot this as follows:

 

1. in DIFFERENT algos, is your midi clock reliable/stable?

2. When you hook your midi clock up to a monitor ( i rec MIDI OX on PC).. do you see any unexpected values?

3. have you tried a different clock source?

4. Can your clock source send a CC tap?

 

I would stress #2. SO MANY problems are from MIDI source, and without an objective view of what is actually being sent you are wasting your life.

 

 

[bobspencermusic]

Hi Camn,

 

1) Yes in different algos the midi clock is realiable – Harpeggiator is the only one I’ve used with a problem.

2) I haven’t hooked the clock to a monitor. I’m new to midi and don’t know anything about that process but I’ll learn about it.

3) Different clock sources – I have used 3 different DAW’s as clock sources (I assume this is what you mean by source and not the device the that has the mid port). I tried Ableton, and Mulab. The Harpeggiator problem persisted, but these same DAW’s provided reliable midi clock for my Infinity looper pedal. 

I then tried using logic as the clock source and the Harpeggiator became stable. However, I need to make this work with Ableton for a live show. I have slaved Ableton to Logic as a short term work around, If I can understand why it works with Logic and not Ableton, maybe we can find a solution.

Logic has more midi clock modes than the other 2 DAW’s. The modes are:

Pattern – Quantized clock start based on pattern length

Song – SPP at Play Start and Stop/SPP?Continur at Cycle Jump

Song – SPP at Play STart and Cycle Jump

Song – SPP at Play and Start only

The Harpeggiator works properly on all of these settings except “Song – SPP at Play Start and Stop/SPP?Continur at Cycle Jump”

Ableton has two options for it’s midi clock “Song” or “Pattern” but neither of these work.

 

4) When you say CC tap – do you mean send tap tempo from the clock source? If so yes. Even though the harpeggiator algo was not playing in time, it was correctly showing the tempo being sent. Inlcuding following tap tempo.

 

Does this help narrow down where the problem could be or do you still recommend hooking the clock up to a monitor?

 

Thanks for your help!

[camn]

That is kind of helpful.
Next is to rig up a monitor, and Compare what is different about Logic’s clock and Ableton’s clock.

I would theorise that Ableton is sending some extra signal that interacts with the Harp Algo in some way… And Logic has a more ‘clean’ clock. Should be determinable on a monitor. Alternatively, the Harp Algo ~requires~ some dumb extra signal that only Logic provides.
This case also would benefit by direct comparison of the signals.

Either way, this sounds frustrating.

Side note… Do you have ANY other MIDI assignments on the H9? It might be helpful to unassign any parameter adjustments or hotswitch assignments… Make sure that the H9 at least nominally should only be responding to clock. Maybe that’s where the crosstalk is?

[bohan]

bobspencermusic wrote:

I can't understand how the rhtyhms in the harpeggiator relate to the click I'm sending (via midi clock)

Could you tell me the settings in Harpeggiator where the rhythm will line up with the click? When I change the tempo in my DAW, Harpeggiator also changes to the correct tempo, so there a no problems there.

I have tried it with:

Everything in the right panel set to 0 except Rhythm A, which I have on 05 as that's an even division of the 16 steps in the sequence. Dry/Wet is set to 100% wet. Mix between A and B is A10, Dynamics 0.

I have tried different lengths, but nothing lines up. It seems like it's playing to a completely different tempo.

I want to be able to make live sequeces synced with other instruments, with midi clock coming from a DAW.

Which Pitch Seq did you select? Do you set the Length to 1/4?

[bohan]

bobspencermusic wrote:

I tried different lenghts including 1/4. What is the length describing? The lenght of the entire sequence fitting into 1 1/4 note of the tempo? I know that would be way too fast – just looking for an explanation. The tap light on the pedal is flashing in time with the midi clock, but the sequence is not in time.

The Length is for the beat not the entire sequence. So the sequence length is LENGTH * 16.

[bohan]

bobspencermusic wrote:

I have everything off except for rhtyhm sequence – to make it easy to hear what's going on. I put that on 05, which looks like an even division of all 16 steps. The rhythm I hear has no relationship to the midi clock BPM I'm sending, but the H9 is following the tempo when I make changes to the MIDI clock tempo. The tap light is also flahsing in time with the MIDI clock tempo.

Other algorithms with time like delay and tremolo are locking in correctly with the MIDI clock.

When I set the MIDI clock BPM to 150, I found manually setting the Harpeggiator tempo to 204 got it in time. Anyt thoughts as to what's going on here?

If you don't use the MIDI clock, just set the BPM to 120 and Length to 1/4, and then play something simple through, can you hear two notes in a second? I just want to see if your H9 works correctly without the MIDI clock.

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