Mixinglink and accordion

[Squeeze]

No one is asking about accordions, what?! I’m about to receive my new Mixinglink and hope to solve the following problem: It’s mic-ed with three mini condenser mics that feed into a Yamaha MG10XU mixer, where they get phantom power and are mixed (bass and treble side) then sent to an effects loop with a wah pedal, then return to the mixer, then head out to an amp or PA. On the effects return I apply a 26 db pad on the mixer, which tames the signal from the wah. I’m now adding a synth pedal to the loop, but I’m not happy with the results and the rep at Sweetwater says the loop from my mixer is likely too hot. He recommends the Mixinglink to reduce the line-level signal from the mixer to an instrument-level signal for the wah and synth pedal loop. Does that make sense? How do I set it up? Will the Mixinglink add anything that the pad doesn’t already do? Thanks!

[PRSGUY513]

The first issue I think would be a problem is putting the Wah in the FX loop. I take it this is a typical guitar Wah. Wah’s are rather sensitive to what signal impedance is put into them. They’re looking for HiZ inputs. Have you tried the FX loop without the wah? What synth pedal are you using? Does the synth pedal have any wah type FX? Something like the Boss Synth pedals should handle a line level signal well. I’m not sure the Mixinglink is going to help you with the wah. I hope I understand your setup correctly.

[Squeeze]

Thanks for the quick reply! Wah is a Dunlop Cry Baby 535Q; synth pedal is a Boss SY-200. The wah is in the FX loop sent by and returning to the Yamaha mixer FX loop. The synth pedal precedes it in the same loop. The synth pedal also has its own loop option, but I’m not using this loop.

Current setup: Accordion/condenser mics => mixer with phantom power => FX send => synth pedal => wah => FX return/mixer with 26 db pad=> PA or amp

My earlier attempt to use the wah without the mixer was unsuccessful/too prone to feedback. The mixer allows me to overcome this problem. But I’ll try your suggestion, placing the wah elsewhere in the chain. Where should I put it? The mics need phantom power, so putting it before the mixer doesn’t seem like a solution. And you say the synth pedal, which currently sounds thin and tinny, should accept the line-level signal from the mixer with no problem. Would the Mixinglink be useful anywhere in a revised chain? I appreciate any suggestions.

[Squeeze]

Oh, and there are no obvious wah effects on synth pedal unless they are part of other patches. Thanks again.

 

[PRSGUY513]

Squeeze wrote:

Oh, and there are no obvious wah effects on synth pedal unless they are part of other patches. Thanks again.

Missed this while writing. Sorry.

[PRSGUY513]

When you say the synth sounds thin is this when it’s the only pedal in the loop with no pad or less pad? Unfortunately both the wah and the SY-200 are wanting a high impedance (HiZ) input like from an electric guitar pickups. As an aside, am I correct in thinking the accordion has multiple cables (one for each condenser mic) leading from it and being plugged into separate mixer channels? I took a closer look at the Mixinglink and it may provide some options that may help.

Here are some suggestions:

• try the wah in the SY-200 loop
• run the mixer send to the SY-200 first then wah
• perhaps the “Amp Out” of the Mixinglink is buffered to give a better signal for the wah and/or SY-200 in the loop of either mixer or SY-200
• Perhaps the loop of the MixingLink will be buffered more for guitar level and help
• Does the SY-200 have the ability to connect an expression pedal (it should) and if so, see if it can facilitate the same effect you use the Wah for and lose the Dunlop. I know many times a digital wah isn’t the same.

Basically the signal being output from your accordion and also the Mixer loop is meant for different impedances and levels. A buffer circuit is what commonly would help balances this out and some of your devices may have them built in and suffice. Radial and Lehle make different gadgets that may be more affordable and more specific to your need. Also, check within the SY-200 for any parameters that can adjust the input and/or its loop characteristics for different signals. Let us know if anything helps.

 

[brock]

I can’t contribute to the Mixing Link help, but I do admire processing an accordion!  Like PRSGUYS13 implied, I don’t see you using the wah & SY ‘in series’ at the same time, but maybe.  Or alternately engaged.

Spitballing now (I don’t own any of the hardware mentioned here):  Not ideal, but perhaps the send from the SY loop to the wah, then return it to an open mixer channel?

What led me down that path was the wah’s boost capability.  You may be able to use it in a mic input, without unbearable distortion.

Just winging some potential options …

[Squeeze]

Thanks for these helpful suggestions. I’ve removed the wah to experiment with the SY-200 alone. Results remain uninspiring but the MixingLink arrives in a day or two, and I’ll try these various possibilities. Yes, regarding the prodipe condenser mics: Two on the treble/keys side merge and feed into one xlr mixer channel. One on the bass/buttons side feeds into a second xlr channel. Both channels add phantom power. One option might be to use a different mic set up: One on each side (treble and bass) that merge and then feed into the single MixingLink mic input. We’ll see.

[PRSGUY513]

I just wanted to say like @brock that I admire and think it’s cool to process the accordion and hope I didn’t seem otherwise. Something I was thinking might be useful is to contact Boss support and explain the situation and see what they may have to say about types of signals and what may work. Besides some of the pure electrical elements I believe the SY-200 is using pitch detection to trigger the tone generation. This is usually tricky even under ideal conditions. I would think Boss would be able to lead you in the right direction and provide help about what to expect in regards to performance.

[Squeeze]

No worries, I totally appreciate your effort to help. I was thinking something similar in terms of the SY-200 and wondering whether its polyphonic tracking might cause difficulties with all the sounds bumping around inside the accordion chamber. Perhaps the monophonic tracking of, say, the Audio Source C4 synth pedal might work better.

[PRSGUY513]

Squeeze wrote:

No worries, I totally appreciate your effort to help. I was thinking something similar in terms of the SY-200 and wondering whether its polyphonic tracking might cause difficulties with all the sounds bumping around inside the accordion chamber. Perhaps the monophonic tracking of, say, the Audio Source C4 synth pedal might work better.

For now I would wait until the Mixinglink arrives and see how that may work. One thing I realized is that since you only need two balanced inputs for the accordion the Mixinglink can possibly be your all in one solution. As far as the Source Audio C4, you might find the same issues. Do have music stores nearby? I would take the Mixinglink and try different units before purchasing. Or if they have a liberal return policy bring it home and try.

Something I’m curious about, had you been using an accordion with effects previously in a different setup with success? Or is this your first attempt?

[joecozzi]

The MixingLink can take the line level signal of the Yamaha mixer’s FX Send and convert it to high impedance for you. I would put the wah and synth in the MixingLink’s loop. Take the output of the MixingLink back to the Yamaha’s FX return. Make sure the MixingLink’s output is set to line level with the dip switch on the bottom of the pedal.

Another thing you must pay attention to is whether or not you’re mixing the signal from the accordion with the affected signal of the wah and synth at the same time. This may be causing undesired effects. Remember, you’re running the according through an SY200, a digital effect that will induce latency that when mixed with the original dry signal may cause comb filtering mainly if the effect is not set to 100% wet.

[Squeeze]

Thanks for these great ideas. After many experiments @joecozzi got me closest to a solution with that little dip switch on the bottom. I’m still working just with the synth pedal and have not yet reintegrated the way. A couple of issues remain. Probably the first and for sure the second have more to do with the accordion and the synth pedal than with any Mixinglink setup. First, on 90 percent of the synth sounds I get all these sound artifacts playing through the system even when I’m not playing the accordion. It’s almost like the synth is broadcasting a radio signal of a given effect to the phones/monitor/amp, even after I’ve carefully adjusted the gain. Or perhaps the pedal is picking up and digitizing any random exterior sound that enters the accordion chamber. If anyone has any suggestions about this problem, I’m all ears, but again I recognize it’s probably not a Mixinglink issue. Second, as would be expected, most of the synth effects are very guitar-focused and 80s-like. I’ll have to decide whether the few that really fit the accordion and the jazz/blues/world orientation of my band make it the right pedal. I’m going to try a couple of other pedal options. The good news is that I now know how to use the Mixinglink to its best advantage. Thanks again!

A couple of other things:

For @joecozzi: your solution worked well even when mixing the dry and wet sound.

For @PRSGUY513: yes, I’ve been using the wah successfully for years now. At first it was a challenge to make it work without terrible feedback. The mixer proved to be the solution to that problem.

[Squeeze]

*reintegrated the wah

[PRSGUY513]

It really sounds like extraneous noises and sound are triggering the synth. This is even an issue with guitar and string and pick noise. I must play very cleanly when using a guitar synth. Usually there is a setting to adjust the sensitivity. This can be as simple as a setting choosing Bass or Guitar all the way to exactly what frequencies (ranges) are detected. I forget if the SY-200 has this feature and how sophisticated it is. One thing that can be helpful with guitar is a Noise Gate. This will only let sounds of a certain level through. This is why even though the pitch detection technology has really gotten better, my experience with guitar is using a hexaphonic pickup is best. “Hex” meaning a pickup for each string. An individual pickup for each note of the Accordion is quite another subject.

I know this might not be easy, but if you could post a recording I feel pretty confident I could tell what is happening.

I’m going to post this link to show a technology that exists that may be something to know about for future possibilities with the accordion if you are really interested in converting notes to MIDI and triggering devices and software. I don’t even know if this company in the video can adopt it to accordion. I just thought it might be something you may be interested in checking out. This may be way beyond the scope of what you want to do.

 

 

 

[Squeeze]

More good info–and a great video–thanks! I’ll try to pull together a short recording. The SY-200 has only a guitar/bass setting, which I’ve set on guitar, and the ability to tweak the parameters of individual patches, which helps in some cases. Maybe I should add my 10-channel EQ pedal to the loop or after it. I note that both the audio source C4 and the Zoia synth pedal alternatives have the kind of sensitivity settings you mention and both accept line-level signals. Speaking of which, I suppose I have to ask whether the Mixinglink is overkill for this application. Could I get a cheap Lo-Z to Hi-Z adapter to do the same thing?

[Farhang]

Hello Dear Eventide team

I have bought mixinglink and I want to connect my strymon reverb and delay and my  singular sound loop station pedals to it, but I don’t know how to do this. Can you please guide me and tell me which pedal should be first and then what other pedal and where should the guitar be?
and also If I want to use a microphone in front of my cello, how can I place the pedals for the cello and is it possible to get a stereo output from the mixinglink
and listen in headphones?

I realy need your help..

thank you very much

Best regards

[PRSGUY513]

Squeeze wrote:

More good info–and a great video–thanks! I’ll try to pull together a short recording. The SY-200 has only a guitar/bass setting, which I’ve set on guitar, and the ability to tweak the parameters of individual patches, which helps in some cases. Maybe I should add my 10-channel EQ pedal to the loop or after it. I note that both the audio source C4 and the Zoia synth pedal alternatives have the kind of sensitivity settings you mention and both accept line-level signals. Speaking of which, I suppose I have to ask whether the Mixinglink is overkill for this application. Could I get a cheap Lo-Z to Hi-Z adapter to do the same thing?

Sorry for not getting back to you @squeeze. As far as adding the EQ, I would try and limit things for now. Does the SY-200 have any sort of Noise Gate built in? I think that may be the most helpful if at all. Are you able to adjust the Envelope (ADSR) in the SY-200? Sometimes tweaking the attack decay and release can help with ghost notes.

Definitely looking at other gear (Source Audio) is always a possibility. I would try and find out in someway (by playing in person, or talking to a representative) before purchasing.

Yes it’s possible the Mixinglink is overkill especially since you’re still going to using your Yamaha mixer. Did you have something specific in mind?

[PRSGUY513]

Farhang wrote:

Hello Dear Eventide team I have bought mixinglink and I want to connect my strymon reverb and delay and my singular sound loop station pedals to it, but I don’t know how to do this. Can you please guide me and tell me which pedal should be first and then what other pedal and where should the guitar be?and also If I want to use a microphone in front of my cello, how can I place the pedals for the cello and is it possible to get a stereo output from the mixinglinkand listen in headphones? I realy need your help.. thank you very much Best regards

Hello @Farhang

I would have to think about this some. I just wanted to reply so you don’t think you’re being ignored. However, it might be best to make a separate post for your situation. The looper pedal can go in different places depending on your desired situation. They can be at the end of a chain, but many people have them as the first device. People with more experience with looping might see this if you make a separate post.

[Squeeze]

Just want to update and thank everyone who posted about my accordion questions. I should let you know that I’ve tried the Zoia now, and it’s more sophisticated settings (including -12db input) have largely remedied the feedback and sound artifact problems I was having, even with the MixingLink removed from the chain. I learned a lot from all of you along the way. Thanks again.

[PRSGUY513]

Squeeze wrote:

Just want to update and thank everyone who posted about my accordion questions. I should let you know that I’ve tried the Zoia now, and it’s more sophisticated settings (including -12db input) have largely remedied the feedback and sound artifact problems I was having, even with the MixingLink removed from the chain. I learned a lot from all of you along the way. Thanks again.

Great to hear things are going in the right direction. I’ll have to keep the Zoia in mind as possible sound gadget. Sometime when you get comfortable with everything you’ll have to post a link to a clip of some of the sounds and music you perform. I would be interested in hearing it.👍👍👍

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