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February 26, 2008 at 11:44 pm #105395CrysstalizedParticipant
I am loving my Modfactor, but have some questions about the "types" given to each effect as given on p. 18 in the manual (i.e. for chorus, "liquid" "organic" "shimmer"). I would love to know how each is different in function. A few are described (rotary-standard/giant), some I understand by title (undulator-pitch/feedback, tremelo-bias/opto, q-wah-wah/voc, modfilter-lopass/bandpass/hipass), and a few by function (ringmod-ring/sting which is AM/FM?).
The ones I'm most curious about would be chorus: multi-voice vs. single? eq? delay time?
Flanger: positive/negative=feedback? Jet=intense negative? THRU-0=through zero flanging–although I can't get it to go through zero in mono. Why?
Phaser: positive/negative=feedback? if so, how does "feedback" (type) differ? BiPhase makes me think of the Mu-Tron Bi-Phase (which I used to own), but doesn't have distinct dual LFO's in sound. What am I missing?
vibrato: retro=notched filter like phaser, but dry sig only? modern/vintage=delay lines? What is the difference between them?
I am enjoying this pedal, and look forward to your answers as they will help me to program the pedal.
March 6, 2008 at 7:42 pm #117097CrysstalizedParticipant
Surely someone at Eventide could provide this info? Thanks
March 10, 2008 at 6:34 pm #117130DGillespieModeratorEventide Staff
I'm probably the one who needs to answer this question and I've been swamped recently, thanks for waiting.
So let's see, chorus:
The liquid style chorus tends to give you a pretty subtle sound, it's a great chorus to use when you want to add some weight to your sound without sounding like you're using a chorus. It's also great to use after a little bit of distortion or overdrive because no matter what it will never turn into a flanger. (This is pretty rare with chorus sounds)
The organic style chorus is closest to the one in the timefactor. It's 2 voices modulated against each other and you can control the amount of overlap with the xnob. Also by using the second LFO controls you can create Polymod style sounds similar to the ones from the Eclipse, though not exactly.
The shimmer style chorus is an ambient style chorus, using the xnob for feedback can get you some Kurt Cobain style sounds; though it's not supposed to be a clone of that pedal.
For the Flangers you can sum the dry and wet signals either in phase or out of phase (positive or negative). Jet is indeed intense negative, in beta we had some requests for a flanger that totally takes over your sound and this is that. All these combinations will give you different sounds and they best thing to do is just play with them; though Positive is probably the most common for previously existing pedals all are available. Through Zero flanging is achieved my modulating the 2 signals against each other through the same point in time. The difference is that in most flangers the sound gets higher and higher and tension builds, then it turns and starts going down again, but you never actually get ther. In a through zero flanger the tension builds but the flange just keeps going and goes right through the wall and ends up on the other side. At that "wall" point the sound can either dissapear completely (right channel) or double in intensity (left channel). I think it has the effect of being a more mellow sound because it doesn't allow the tension to keep building up.
For Phasers, Positive and Negative are similar to what I said about flangers, Feedback simply forgoes the dry signal and therefore gives yet another flavor. For BiPhase I had implemented my favorite features of that great Mu-Tron effect which are the 2 phasers in series with the LFO1 driving them either with or against each other. The actual Bi-Phase itself has so many different features that we wouldn't have space in the pedal or on the controls to do them all.
You've got good ears on the Vibrato, modern/vintage is digital/BBD style delays.
I hope that answers your questions.
March 10, 2008 at 7:35 pm #117133mlabbeeMember
That's very helpful – thanks! One quick question on the Organic chorus – by overlap, do you mean the relative volumes of the voices or the phase shift between the oscillators. I saw a waveform from teh Boss CE-300 (one of my favorite choruses) and the oscillators for the two voices were exactly out of phase triangles waves – I'd like to try and reproduce that effect.
March 10, 2008 at 7:46 pm #117134mlabbeeMember
Not sure if my previous attempt to reply went through – my browser died. so if this is a repeat, sorry! Thanks for the info – that's very informative. One quick question about the organic chorus – by "amount of overlap," do you mean the relative volumes of each voice or the phase offset between the oscullators? I'm hoping to recreate the sound of my old Boss CE-300, which has two triangle wave oscillators exactly out of phase (180 degrees?)
March 10, 2008 at 8:12 pm #117135CrysstalizedParticipant
Thanks Dan, for taking the time to respond, I very much appreciate it. If you could clear just a few more questions for me, it would us users a lot.
To explain, I do well with applications and that is generally more subjective anyways. The mechanical (not really 'cause its software-but you know what I mean), were the most helpful.
Chorus (Organic): the "organic" is two modulated voices (delay lines) according to your description. What are the "shimmer" and "liquid" chorus types? Are they multiple voices or single? How do they differ from one another (in function, no need to describe sound). I'll will make a few comments about the types in the other chorus thread as well.
Flange: The flange descriptions were excellent. I am a mono user, like most pedal users. I love the positive, negative, and jet types, which were well explained. For the THRU-0, could it be set up in mono for through-zero flanging? I have a few other units that can do that. I would like to sell them, but can't get the MF to do it in mono. To explain: I love the classic Jimi Hendrix and Beatles flanging sounds which used a couple tape machines for flanging. From what I understand, you can have a tape machine run in parallel with a second one that is manually slowed and released by an operator to create delay for a sweeping comb filter. In that scenario (since both parts are not being played in real time), the operator would release his hand from the delayed machine, allowing it to catch up to the "dry" machine. With the "delayed" machine, the mechanics of the release allowed it to go forward in play time past the "dry" machine creating total phase cancellation of sound for a short time. Obviously, analog electronic units could not do this with a real time dry signal. Since (I assume, please correct me if I am wrong) that the MF relies on Stereo operation for TZF, could you configure it to do it mono? I believe this would be accomplished by actually delaying the dry signal by a static time (say 4ms or so?) and having the second modulated delay line sweep past it. Listening to some of those classic recordings (Bold As Love: Jimi Hendrix–my fav!), I wouldn't describe the effect as subtle, as the cancellation quickly cancels through the whole signal. This effect would be greatly desired in mono for me.
I share your love of the Mu-Tron Bi-Phase sound! Thanks again for your great phaser descriptions. I was wondering (probably my number one wish for upgrades), if the second LFO for all the effects, the one that modulates the first LFO, could be made to be a separate LFO (either in parallel or series) to the first, instead of being attached to it. What I mean, is that the second, bottom row of (D-mod, S-mod, Mod source) could be set up, maybe in the system menu, to control a separate LFO. In the Bi-Phase type phaser, it could control the other LFO with the ability to sync them also. The same could be done with the flanger except it might be better to do parallel, again with the ability to control the sync/non-sync.
Sorry, that was a few questions and a long wishlist 🙂 Thanks for taking the time to answer questions, and listen to our feedback.
March 10, 2008 at 8:33 pm #128195IDeangelisMember
I would like to point out that is simply impossible to have all those requested chorus sounds in a single pedal as there is not enough room for all these different structures.
We will look into more possibilities to add, nevertheless.
For those of you who are *really* into chorus, please consider an H series rack unit where most chorus units are already well reproduced, with great details. In addition to that you'll be able to create other flavors using Vsigfile algorithm editor.
March 10, 2008 at 9:23 pm #128200DGillespieModeratorEventide Staff
A couple things…
mlabbee: By controlling the overlap I mean the delay offset of the voices, the phase of the LFO is always out of phase and you can get the closest to your desired sound by turning the xnob all the way to the right on the organic chorus.
Secondly, obviously Italo is correct. The number of different effects and the ability to change them that is available in the H series products is unsurpassed. I know that they aren't cheap but if you're interested in "rolling your own" as it were, I suggest checking them out.
Finally, to Chris, the ability to do the 2 LFO thing with the BiPhase and/or flanger or whatever might be a possibility. We'll have to look at it and add it to the feature requests for the product.
The through zero descriptions you have for tape are correct and that is basically what we are emulating, the difference for mono/stereo that you are hearing is how the signals are summed. As with regular flangers you can sum the signals in phase or out of phase which is the difference between the left and right signal in our TZ flanger. When you sum the signals out of phase you get total cancellation at Zero and it does lead to a more dramatic effect; perhaps we need to add a Negative Through Zero option.
For Chorus', the Shimmer also has 2 voices, but with added feedback; and the Liquid has just one voice per channel but lets just say a boy has to have some secrets.
March 10, 2008 at 9:48 pm #128204CrysstalizedParticipant
Thanks guys for the info. The separate LFO(s) feature, Negative Through Zero and a single voice+plus shorter delay time chorus would be killer!
April 1, 2009 at 2:53 pm #129594yes9310Member
Any chance of a Negative Through Zero option? Like many, I've been trying to get he Hendrix "House Burning Down" and "Axis Bold As Love" sounds but can't seem to get the Flanger patch to do much more than my old Boss BF-2 stomp flanger even on the negative setting. If it could get the total phase cancellation via Negative Through Zero would really make the Flanger patch something to brag about. When I read in the marketing how the Flanger on this was second to none and saw the Zero Through setting, I just assumed it could do the Axis thing so I bought it but find it can't at this point. In fact, I was really surprised that for a box called the ModFactor that it can't do a reasonable Uni-vibe sound which was the other main reason I got it. I almost sent it back immediately because I was really disappointed when I discovered that it couldn't do the 2 main things I wanted it for, but what made me eventually decide to keep it was the great Rotary and Vibrato sounds which are nice to have but not as important as a Uni-vibe or having a TZF for my style. So I've been using an external Vibe clone (Fulltone Deja 2) and a Line 6 Liqua Flange that has a ZTF function which kind of defeats the whole purpose of getting the MF. I know the Uni-Vibe 4 stage phaser things is a little more complicated to implement but any chance of adding the Negative Through Zero option anytime soon?
Otherwise, I've really come to love the pristine sounds of the chorus, rotary and vibrato patches when I can use them, though I sometimes just end up using just the TimeFactor set on patch 5:2 for a decent simulated Uni-vibe clone or the TF 2:2 patch for the Leslie sounds. So it's a push-pull thing on whether to keep the MF or send it to ebay. The negative ZTF capability would definitely make it a forever keeper.
April 3, 2009 at 6:22 pm #129603DGillespieModeratorEventide Staff
Sorry for the delay in answering the question. I wanted to look at the code again to remind myself what was up with the through zero option. As it is currently set up, if you run mono input, the left channel should be positive through 0 while the right channel should give you a negative through 0. This is just a cheap way of stereoizing the signal and giving you both options, but I realize it's not ideal for use if you just want negative through 0.
I'll add the negative through 0 and univibe to the feature request list and I'll see if we can get these in a future release. In the meantime can you try using your MF on the through 0 setting using the channel 1 input and the channel 2 output and let me know if that's the sound you're looking for?
April 4, 2009 at 10:14 pm #129609yes9310Member
Thanks for the reply and sounds fantastic if you could work on those 2 effects for the next update! I wrote you a private message. Please check it and let me know what you think. Thanks! Frank
April 5, 2009 at 2:15 pm #129612yes9310Member
Dan you are the man! I am very close to the Hendrix "House Burning Down" Negative Through Zero with deep cancellation just as you said going into the left mono and out the 2nd channel! I'm really excited! I don't have it 100% down just yet but I think I will soon and think the capability is in there with a little more tweaking!
Checking out other ZTF settings from teh Paradox ZTF, it works if you set to Through-Zero then set to Envelope, then set intensity to zero and xnob to zero and speed and intensity to around 11 o'clock. Then using the Expression pedal you can go to full great flange sounds to super deep cancellations at heel on expression!
The whole key to getting the Hendrix "House Burning Down" and Axis Bold As Love or Lenny Kravitz "Are You Gonna Go My Way" or Prince type sounds is you have to run a heavy distortion or overdrive first into the flanger to make the cancellations noticeable. I ran one of those new Way Huge Fat Sandwich harmonic saturator distortion pedals in and wow! I almost have House Burning Down nailed! I'll make a clip and post a little later.
Question, for mono setups, if I stay plugged into the left mono and run out of 2nd channel to utilize the negative Through Zero side, will the other patches like 1:2, 6:2 Rotary, 8:2 Vibrato sound the same as if they were run out of channel 1? They seem to sound the same or close but not sure if there were any differences at all being that the flanger is left positive-right negatve.
Thanks again Dan!!!
Check out my demo ModFactor Negative TZF (Through-Zero-Flanger) Demo
I'm posting a separate thread about this as this is an important breakthrough! 🙂
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