Phase issues with Eventide Space during patch changes

[ccl117]

Greetings,

I recently bought my second Eventide Space pedal for use in my mini rack, and have been experiencing a problem with phasing that I was hoping to get the forum's assistance on.

Specifically, I am running the Space in kill-dry mode in a line mixer with a Strymon TimeLine in a MIDI controlled looper setup.  I only use MIDI for program changes on my Eventide pedals.  I found that when I switch program changes between presets that have the Eventide Space activated, I get a very noticeable phase sound / volume spike that lasts for roughly two seconds while I am playing, then goes away.  Ie going from rig preset one (Clean amp, Space spring reverb) to preset 2 (Clean amp, Space hall reverb), is followed by a two second volume spike, and what sounds like a flanger effect, before it goes away.  It's as if the Space pedal switches out of killdry mode while it is loading the next preset, and pumps a additional dry tone in the mixer which causes the error.  I have disconnected the MIDI cable to troubleshoot, and can confirm that error does not happen when the Space pedal is active in both presets but does not change patches.

How can I eliminate this?  Thank you,

[MarcoR]

The gap or lag between preset changes was pretty disappointing for me as well. I'm not sure if it's the dry signal coming through (while in killdry) or just the sound of the algorithm and parameters changing that causes a phasing sound but I hear it too.

What has worked well for me is just using CC messages to change the mix and decay of a Space preset when changing full rig presets. So when I go from a Fenderish clean to a Marshally crunch with a preset like "Guitar Room" I'm just lowering the the effect mix and decay Via CC. This way there is no glitch whatsoever. Yes, it is a compromise but it does work well and sounds very natural. I just hope your midi controller can send multiple CC messages!

[ccl117]

Thank you Marco, I appreciate your response, but am pretty disappointed to learn that this might be a significant design flaw in the pedal.  

My Mark L Custom FX-25 ACE controller does support multiple cc changes luckily; would you mind explaining a little bit more what you are describing, or point me in the right direction in the manual where I can figure out how to do that?  Thanks man

[DGillespie]

Hi ccl117,

I'm sorry to hear that you're having this problem, it obviously shouldn't be happening.  I wonder, does this happen if you turn spillover off in system mode?  Also, if you turn killdry on, do you hear the same phasing all the time, or does it sound different?

Thanks,

Dan

[MarcoR]

No problem, check page 39 in the manual where it explains the RCV CTL function. Basically you select a parameter you want to control and assign a midi CC# you want to use to control it. Then in your midi controller you need to configure the CC messages to be sent for each preset.

Now, although the gap when switching presets on Space is a bummer, it's almost understandable considering the complexity of some of the algorithms, the real gottcha is the fact that it resents the preset even if your already on the preset! You not even telling it to change the preset but if it receives a program change whether you already on it or not it will reload giving you that painful gap.

My setup is the same as your splitting out my signal to run my delay and Space in parallel. What I've done is: Assign Space to a midi channel the does not receive program changes. Configure Space to receive CC messages for the parameters I want to control. Configure presets on my controller that send CC to Space along with PC and CC to all my other gear.

[ccl117]

Hi Dan,

I will check the spillover settings now, but the pedal is set for KillDry on in my setup  The phase issues only happen durring the first two seconds of patch changes, and then it disappears.  I isolated the issue to the Eventide Space pedal by disconnecting the MIDI cable from it, and confirmed the issue does not happen when I do program changes with the rest of my rig.

For additional info, I just wanted to add that I am the first and only owner of the Space pedal, and the issue has been happening as long as I have owned it (less than 30 days).

[ccl117]

Hi Dan,

To follow up, I had Spillover "on", and turned it off to test per your recommendation.  Unfortunately that did not solve the issue.  I also tried switiching between DSP+FX, DSP, and Relay settings, and unfortuantely that did not solve the issue either.

I think I got what you mentioned in your last response, I turned KillDry off to see if that sound is the same, and confirmed that phasing sound is the same.  Based on what I heard, it really sounds like a dry signal is coming out of the space durring the 2 second patch over change.

What can I do to fix it?  Thanks

[exhausted]

I have the same problem.  Seems to be worse when switching between two presets that have different output levels set.

For instance, I have one preset with a big hall reverb with a high mix setting and therefore I've increased the output level (3db or so) to compensate for the perceived drop in dry signal.  I have another preset with a small spring reverb, a low mix and therefor a unity output level.  Switching between these two presets, whether via MIDI or footswitches, leads to a couple seconds of wildly varying output volume.  It's a real bummer because you simply cannot smoothly transition between presets.  I really hope it gets fixed.  You end up having to spend a bunch of time managing settings and carefully considering transitions to avoid the wobbly preset changes that I haven't experienced with other units.

[DGillespie]

Hi ccl117,

It sounds like it might be a bug on our end, but there might be a potential work around.  Can you try setting mix to global and turning mix to all the way wet?  This should keep the dry from coming through when you switch presets.

Let me know how it goes,

Dan

[ccl117]

Thank you for your response Dan. I can try setting the preset mixes to 100% wet to test if it will help,, but unfortunately it will make the pedal unusable from a playing standpoint due to having the effect level much to loud on most settings. Do you just want me to test to see if there is still a phasing issue, or was this intended as a temp fix until a bug fix is created? If it is a temp fix, is there a way I can lower the effect volume/level with the wet mix maxed? Thank you again for your help on this,

[DGillespie]

Hi ccl117,

I would like to know if this fixes the issue, and I would suggest it as a work around for the time being.  You would probably have to use it in conjunction with the output level control for each preset.  You can set the output level of a preset by bypassing the preset and holding the active switch.  With the active switch held you can change the output level with the encoder.  Remember to save the preset afterward.

Dan

[ccl117]

Hi Dan,

Thank you again for your continued help to try and fix this bug, as well as the information regarding adjusting the output level.  Unfortunately, even with your suggested fix there is still a dry signal coming out of the Space during patch changes.  I made sure the Global mix was "on" and set to 100% wet.  After that didn't work, I double checked the presets, and can confirm they were set to 100% wet and successfully saved.  Exact same issue as before, 1-2 seconds of a volume spike and what sounds like a flanging effect.

I'm sure you guys are just as frustrated as me, if not more so, but I really do appreciate your efforts to try and correct.  It's truly a phenomenal pedal, and personally one of my favorites (I own two in fact).  I'm confident there has to be someway to fix this error; do you have anymore suggestions that I can try in the interim?

Separately, if you are working on a software update fix, I am happy to help beta test if it would be beneficial.  Please let me know if I can help get it going, regards

[MarcoR]

Well, I'm glad Eventide is finally taking a look at the problem and considering it may be a bug. I've brought up the issue regarding the lag and volume swell multiple times without any significant response.

Perhaps the key difference here is the flanging sound when switching that indicates the dry signal is being introduced back to the signal. I’m slightly embarrassed I did pick that out before as I was mainly focusing on the swell and lag but I tested it again tonight and I definitely hear it.

I still recommend as a work around for those that find the unit unusable in a live situation do to the lag-volume swell-flanging between program changes to use CC messages to change the parameters in a preset you like. I’ve been really happy doing just that for the basic meat and potato sounds in my rig.

When I need something “out there” I can deal with the 2 seconds of weirdness but when I’m going from a clean passage to a heavy grind and I need my verb to go from big to just some light ambiance, it must happen without a glitch. CC messages on the mix and decay work great for that; probably better than a program change ever would.

I must mention for anyone who may be clever and try to control the hotswitch via CC that it’s a little funky too; you’ll likely hear some artifacts at least that was my experience, YMMV. I found simply controlling mix and decay to be perfect for my application.

[wedelich]

Hi ccl117,

Is your Space running the latest firmware? Should be 4.0.0 .  You can check in the system menu, under UTILITY SW VERSION

I tried to reproduce this with on a Space by itself (with Killdry on) and could not reproduce it.  Does it occur on all presets or just the two you mentioned?  Does it occur when you just run through the Space alone or only when the Space is in the line mixer configuration with/without the Timeline?  We'll do our best to help you narrow it down.   If there are certain presets where its obviously worse, would you mind sending those our way? 

Thanks   

[wedelich]

Ok,

For some crazy reason I tried to type [ 6 ], only with the brackets next to the 6, and it comes out as a devil.  I think that's the bug, obviously there's a devil in 4.0.0 [ 6 ].     

[ccl117]

Hi Russel,

Thank you again for your attention in trying to figure this out.  I walked through your questions best I could below, please let me know of anything else I can do to help correct.

1) Confirmed I am running version 4.0.0 6 (without the devil )

2) I can confirm it happens on all presets, usually noticed 90% of the time.  I can also confirm it happens when the same preset is pulled up.  I notice it most on presets 3 & 4 (plate and spring) due to the fact that I use them most often, and am typically playing guitar while conducting preset changes (going from a clean channel to a lead tone, often with the same Space preset selected on both).

3) I have removed the TimeLine from the line mixer to test, and can confirm the Space produces the same error.  Additionally, when I leave the Space loop "on" in my rack looper, but remove the MIDI plug from the Space, the error does not happen.  Granted I don't change Space presets, but everything else in my rig switiches over as designed without phase issues while the Space is feeding its signal in the mix.  I am certain it is the Space + MIDI patch changes that prompt the error to happen.

I pull up patch changes on the Space via MIDI program changes.  I tested it with three different MIDI controllers to ensure it wasn't a controller hardware glitch, and the error happened with all.  I do not use MIDI for any other functions with the Space other than patch changes.

Please let me know if this helps, and whataver else I can do to help correct.  You might also want to reach out to some of the other forum members who have the same somewhat common setup (Space run in parallel with KillDry on) who have reported the same issues.

[ccl117]

Hi guys, any updates?  Thank you

[wedelich]

Hi ccl117,

What type of MIDI controlled loop are  you using?  Could you do me a favor, and take the Space out of the Loop and just run it by itself to see if there is any dry signal leaking through during a program change?  Keep KIllDry ON.   Also, would you be willing to do a dump all, and send us the.syssex file? 

[ccl117]

Greetings,

I am using a RJM Rack Gizmo looper, with a Mark L Custom FX-25 ACE foot controller.  Very detailed spec sheet below, only thing not depicted is my MIDI change, which is a direct line from the ACE to the Rack Gizmo, which then feeds into a MIDI Solutions Quadra Splitter.  Quadra feeds my ModFactor, Space, and Strymon TimeLine direct.  I bought the Quadra to try and trouble shoot the phase issue, I had the same issue prior to using it.

I got the same issue running the Space by itself with KillDry on.  Additionally, when I run program changes in my rig with just the Space MIDI coord disconnected, I don't have issues either.  Granted the Space pedal does not change patches, but I believe it proves that the MIDI controlled patch changes are the issue with the Space, the rest of the rig works fine when the Space is not receiving MIDI patch change (or "stay the same") messages.

Regarding your request for a syssex file, I am happy to help, but have no idea what that entails.  I am hesitant to erase all my presets again after the last test, but if it would help you to find a solution to the bug I would be willing to learn.  Please let me know what you would like me to do.

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z158/ccl117/ChadRJMRig.jpg

[ccl117]

Checking in again, any updates to correct the error please?  Thanks

[nickrose]

Sorry – software updates take significant time to create, test, document and distribute.

We'll be happy to announce any future updates when we have them ready to go.

[ccl117]

OK, I'm a bit confused; that is a big change from my last correspondence from your company if you look on the forum.  The last response from Eventide on this thread was providing troubleshooting support, and we were in discussions about me sending a syssex file to Eventide to analyze.

Will I now no longer be receiving support from Eventide for my Space pedal since it appears to be a software error that needs a patch update to support?  If that is the case I can live with it, but I am looking for some kind of acknowledgment that the error I identified with KillDry patch changes is accurate, and that no further Eventide troubleshooting support will fix it; it will require a software update to solve.  Thank you

[wedelich]

Hi ccl117,

Nick is correct, these things do take time.  Right now I'm still trying to track down the source of the problem.  I can't seem to duplicate the error over here yet, so a few things:

1. We would like to get a dump all of your space, you'll a MIDI sysex librarian.  For macs you can use snoize http://www.snoize.com/SysExLibrarian/ or if you're PC only you can use MIDIOX http://www.midiox.com/  .  You'll want to hook up your Space via USB to your computer then open one of these programs and make sure it can see the Space.  Basically, you should be able to set one of these programs up to receive MIDI sysex dumps, and while its waiting to receive you go into the system mode of Space, then scroll to MIDI/DUMP, then select ALL.  This will capture the entire state of the pedal in a .sysex file that you can then email to us for testing. 

2.  Just on a whim, have you tried iniatializing the pedal (hold down encoder and middle footswitch during power up)? This will wipe out all your presets and settings, but you should easily be able to restore them from the .sysex file you download in 1.  We also have program for preset storage and management called FactorLib on this page  http://www.eventide.com/AudioDivision/Support/Stompboxes/Space.aspx 

If you get a change let me know if fixes/alleviates the problem, but double check that you actually have your presets saved on the computer first, I'd hate for you to loose them. 

3. would you be willing to make a video or recording of the issue and send that our way too?

Thanks for your patience,

[wedelich]

Hi again,

I don't think Nick mean't this as change of course in our support, but rather, even if we do discover a bug, an update will not likely be immediate, they take time to roll out.  Almost every staff member on this forum is an active development engineer, (believe it or not, we're a relatively small team), so we offer forum support usually when our code is building or solder is settling (so to speak). 

Anyway, we'll get to the bottom of this, thanks again for your patience and level of detail in aiding the process along, (not to mention for being a Space user!)

Best,

[ccl117]

Thank you very much for the detailed response Russel, very helpful.  I will go through your suggestions below:

1) Check.  Will try and complete tonight on my Mac, very good instructions.

2) No, I have not.  I will try this per your recommendation after #1

3) If you check with Jerome H. from email tech support, I sent him a video of the error on 4 Sept.  I originally made the video for RJM Music due to thinking it might be a Rack Gizmo error, but after extensive testing with Ron it appeared to be localized to the Space pedal. (The most conclusive test I tried was simply removing the MIDI cable from the Space while leaving its loop active in my rig.  I went through a series of rig program changes with no phase issues whatsoever. When I completely remove the Space, the issue does not happen either)  I am still open to any and all possibilities, but the testing results seemed to be pretty specific to the culprit, even if we don't have the specifics yet as to why.

I completely understand that updates can take time, and I am very thankful that Eventide puts the support and resources into providing them to their customers.  The Space is an incredible pedal (I think I mentioned I owned two), along with my ModFactor, TimeFactor, and two CIOKs power supplies.  If it does turn out to be a software issue that requires a patch to fix I can work with that, I just want to know if that is the case so I can stop wasting both of our time troubleshooting other solutions to no avail.  I appreciate your additional help in resolving, and will try your proposed solutions this evening.  Cheers.

[ccl117]

Ok, simplified version of videos below to highlight the KillDry setting error.  Guitar, into Space, into Amp; nothing else.  

Space pedal has patch changes administered via MLC FX-25 ACE MIDI controller; no other MIDI functions are utilized.  KillDry setting is "on" to replicate it's setting in the rig.  

You can hear the temporary volume spike durring patch changes which is my dry signal coming through. I have replicated this test with a RJM MasterMind and can confirm the error is the same.  Hope this helps illustrate the issue.

[View:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATmMg1UUefk&feature=youtu.be:550:0%5D

[View:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZselnUtuWI&feature=youtu.be:550:0%5D

[ccl117]

Sysex file sent to Jerome H. per request.

[ccl117]

Just finished re-initializing the pedal per your suggestion, unfortunately no luck there.  I reset the MIDI and KillDry settings and the same phasing/dry signal issue persisted as detailed in the videos.

[wedelich]

ccl117,

Ok, thanks for all the information, I was able reproduce the issue this morning.  Looks like we've got a live one here.  I'll see if I can track down the orgin of the problem as well as figure out a workaround for you in the meantime. 

[wedelich]

ccl117,

Here's what I've found.  Please tell me if you can duplicate these results:

1.  With Spillover Off and KillDry on, dry signal leaks through on every preset change, no matter what the interval (of time) between the changes.   That is, there is always a bug that shouldn't be there.   

2. With Spillover On and KillDry On, dry signal leaks through when I change a preset within 5 secs of a previous preset change.  You shouldn't get the dry leak bug if you keep your preset changes at least 5 secs. apart in this configuration.  Can you confirm this? 

[ccl117]

Hi Russel,

Had a chance to test pretty extensively, and it appears that's a good assessment.  Answers below:

1) Confirmed, bug is audible 90% of the time, regardless of time taken between preset changes.

2) Confirmed.  5 second timeframe seems close, if anything with a slight increased window (up to about 7 sec max) for bug to occur.  Waiting longer than that seems to prevent bug from happening.

Hope this helps, please let me know what else I can do, and thank you again for efforts to try and correct.  Cheers,

Chad

[wedelich]

Chad,

Thanks for confirming.  This is apparently an old bug with Killdry.  Does the 5-7 sec. thing cover you for now, or do you need to be able to bounce through 3 or more presets faster than this?   We're going to roll a fix for this into the next update, but I can't speculate as to a timeline yet. 

Best,

[ccl117]

Hi Russel,

The 5-7 second limit on preset changes should cover me 75% of the time; I do like to cycle through program changes for some lead fills and effects that don't fall into that time window unfortunately, so it will be a ongoing issue for me in those scenarios.  

I am very happy that you and the rest of Eventide are working on a fix however, which is really all I was hoping for from the get-go when this bug was identified (unless of course there was an easier solution).  Thank you for listening to the feedback, and I will cross my fingers that a patch will be coming out in the not too distant future.  As I mentioned before, if there is anything I can do to help test it I would be happy to assist, thank you.

[fmanfredi76]

Hi,

I resume this post, because I noticed on my Space (bought some days ago) a similiar behaviour, but without the killdry option ON. I have a Musicomlab MKIII+ that controls PC and CC (active/bypass), so when a preset is loaded for 5 or 6 seconds, then switching to another one sometimes produces a "shut down" of signal for one or two seconds. Is this issue referable to the same bug?

Thank You and best regards,

Francesco from Italy

[fmanfredi76]

UPDATE:

It's not the same bug. That's what happens: It seems that SHIMMER presets, when MIX set at 0 or low values, produce a volume drop or silence when switching to another preset! Does it make sense?

[alejandroll]

When the upgrade will be available for space. The most important thing for me is to solve the problem of incrementing volume when the effect is changed.

Thanks!

[ccl117]

I just bought a H9, and it has the same issue.  Volume spikes and out of phase tone when changing presets via MIDI in killdry mode.  Absolutely makes the pedal unusable in live applications with this setup, any updates on a fix?

[deanvan]

Is there a fix on the volume spike bug with the Space yet? I recently bought the space and I love the sound except for the volume spikes which render it unusable.

Thank you

[entreat69]

Hey Russell and team at Eventide, strangely i've been experiencing the same patch switching problems that result with a combination of temporary volume spike and phase issues. I never had this problem before until the most recent firmware update. Help please. Thanks.

[spaceJam]

Is this bug still being fixed?

[Author]

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