Space – Instant program change is not so instant

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    • #107918
      MarcoR
      Participant

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      MicrosoftInternetExplorer4

      Love the sounds but I’m a little disappointed program change
      isn’t a little faster and smoother.

      At first I thought it was midi lag as I was switching patches
      via a controller but even using the onboard switches or the rotary knob,
      Show More...

      program changes have a delay and a volume swell.

      This is something I would expect change from one algorithm to
      another but the real issue I have is that I’ve mapped the midi channels to use
      the same program so there should be no change.

      As for the volume swell I’ve found a work around; first I
      noticed the active signal was louder than the bypassed signal, lowering the
      output volume 2 db made both bypassing smoother and reduced the noticeable volume
      swell when changing programs.

      As for the latency when changing programs, I hope this is
      resolved in a software update. Anyone else notice this? I’ve searched on the
      issue but I haven’t found anything other than complaints about other products
      with this issue.

      Anyway, here is my suggestion for the developers: I understand
      that complex algorithms are not so easily switchable without some audible
      artifacts and measures have been taken to make the transition as smooth as
      possible (possibly the reason for the volume swell) but consider this; if I
      have mapped midi channels 0, 1, 2 to all use program 1, don’t except a program
      change if one is received. The logic would be: If program change message midi
      channel is not equal to the current midi channel then change the program else
      do nothing. Does that make sense?

      Let me throw in some more variables. I have tried mapping
      the RCV Map in space and alternately mapping the XMT Map on the Timefactor to
      Space with the same result in either configuration.

      Curious to here responses from users and support.

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    • #122226
      nickrose
      Moderator
      Eventide Staff

      These algorithms are large and complex – that's why they sound the way they do. The downside of this is that they can't be loaded instantly. Sorry.

    • #122227
      MarcoR
      Participant

      Well then Instant program change should be taken out of the marketing features.

      How about my midi program change suggestion?

    • #133477
      caveman
      Participant

      If you are re-using the same algorithm, does the software have to load again with a preset change?

    • #133478
      nickrose
      Moderator
      Eventide Staff

      It's different for the different units – I think Space reloads always, while the others don't. Not sure why.

    • #133479
      MarcoR
      Participant

      nickrose:

      It's different for the different units – I think Space reloads always, while the others don't. Not sure why.

      This is really my only issue. I hope it can be solved with a software update.

    • #134959
      rawkworks
      Member

      Using it in the same way. I would also love to see this, I've not noticed it until today but now I can't get rid of it and it makes changing from a clean to a distorted channel impossible.

    • #123950
      nickrose
      Moderator
      Eventide Staff

      The Instant Program change claim applies to TimeFactor, but not the later products. I guess our massive marketing dept did not know this. I'll try and wake them up.

    • #124058
      fmanfredi76
      Participant

      Hi,

      I'm trying to focus a discussion about volume swell/drop/boost in Space pedal when switching presets via MIDI PC.

      http://forum.eventide.com/cs/forums/t/8290.aspx

      Any advice is welcome.

    • #124061
      MarcoR
      Participant

      I started this tread a year and a half ago and nothings been done. I'm really surprised there have not been more complaints. Is there really only three of us trying to use midi program changes to change presets?

      I gave up a long time ago and just settled for one good reverb preset and use midi CC messages to control the level and decay for my patches. At least I can go from a clean to dirty patch without the gap that occurs with a midi PC.

    • #124072
      fmanfredi76
      Participant

      I bought the Space (not) only for his MIDI features, so I noticed this issue at the first run. Maybe only few units are affected by this behavior, since I think that the volume boost/swell during MIDI PC can't pass unnoticed. I sent some clips to Eventide support, so we'll see…

    • #135277
      MaxFX
      Member

      MarcoR, I'm with you on this.  
      C'mon Eventide, is there any real reason why Space has to re-load an algorithm even when you aren't changing patches?  That seems ridiculous.   There should be a clear warning stating that this pedal is not suitable for playing fast music.

      I've recently purchased one second hand and I thought there was something wrong with it because of the lag between patches.  I started my own thread before I found this one – There was an eerie silence with regards to my question…hmmm.  I did some searching of my own only to find out that it's a known issue Eventide clearly has no interest in addressing as long as they are still selling units.  

      I play fast and loud music with a lot of dynamics and changes, this pedal has proven unworthy for stage use with regards to my applications since the 1+ second volume drop and sound lag make it virtually unusable for certain songs.  I can honestly say I'm disappointed that the Space does not provide the dynamic changes and expression potential I had hoped for.  What originally attracted me to this pedal is the ability to use it with my midi rig alongside the Timefactor for on the fly patch changes but it seems as though this pedal is only usable for certain kinds of on the fly changes with regards to slower songs. 

      My guess is that most people who use this pedal are slow chord changing shoegazers who don't notice the lag or who have time between notes/chords, I'm a shoegazer myself but some of my songs are black metal inspired and fast.   It might be time to sell the Space and go back to my trusty VanAmps Sole Mate or even the Hardwire RV-7.  

      I'm beginning to understand why some people get rid of all of their midi pedals and buy an Axe-FX.

    • #135280
      wedelich
      Moderator
      Eventide Staff

      Hi MaxFX,

      I'll give you a possible solution for fast(er) changes within an single algorithm:

      Space has the Hotswitch function which is bascially like having 2 presets within the actual "preset".  This Hotswitch can toggled via MIDI cc.  You should be able set your MIDI controller to send MIDI CCs too, correct?  I believe the more sophiscated ones will let you attach MIDI PC and CC to a single button or function.  

       In addition to the Hotswitch, we also have expression pedal control (which can also be transmitted via MIDI CC) that gives you even more sounds without having to change presets.  The heel and toe postion can be completely different sounds (with everything in-between of course).  

       Of course, you can always just assign individual MIDI CCs to individual knobs, or aux switches to knobs. 

      There are many possiblities to get the fast changes you are looking for.  Also, are you running with Spillover on/off?  Have you tried both options? How fast do you need the preset changes to be?   

    • #135282
      MarcoR
      Participant

      Russell,

      You need to fix program changes being re-sent if the preset is already loaded. Space is the only one of the factors that does this as far as I know. My Timefactor and Pitchfactor do not reload the algorithm if the preset loaded is the same as the PC message being sent.

      MaxFX, my work around using CC messages to control individual parameters as noted a few posts above works perfectly and is instant. In some ways there are advantages; one Space preset can be customized for each full rig preset with minor CC tweaks (Very cool and advanced).

      Also, Russell suggestion to control the hotswitch with CC does not work well as there is a noticeable zipper effect between the change (that was the first thing I tried).

      The Space is a great pedal but it would be nice if I didn't need to go through the extra programming steps to configure CC messages on all my midi controllers presets.

    • #135283
      wedelich
      Moderator
      Eventide Staff

      Marco,

      Ok, I see what you're saying, the preset is reloading even if you don't actually change it.  This is wrong.  We'll check it out.  A different preset on the same algorithm is a different matter.

      The zipper effect is only if you change the SIZE parameter within a preset.  It's a glide that we found everyone liked as a cool dynamic sound effect.  One of the reasons we actually do reload when changing presets on the same algorithm is to not have these zippers.  The other reasons mostly have to do with the Spillover machine, which is a virtual machine running concurrently with the main processing algorithm (on the same dsp chip).   

      Marco/MaxFX,

      I know you'll agree is vastly deep product, so you can imagine the design and implementation was even more vast.  Everything was painstakingly handcoded (often in assembly language) to get it just right.  One persons "I LOVE THIS!" feature often turns out to be another persons "I HATE THIS!" problem.  Most of the time we find out this on the back end after the product ships.  But I can assure you, there is no conspiracy going on here, we're not trying to trick people, or hide things. 

    • #135284
      MarcoR
      Participant

      Russell,

      Thank you for the response and looking into the midi program change issue. I understand the algorithms take time to load and that is acceptable. Perhaps some improvement could made when switching between two presets with the same algorithm but it's not a deal breaker.

      The big issue I had was when the first 3 presets on my midi controller all shared the same Space preset but switching between them caused an unnecessary gap with the Space preset being forced to reload with each program change.

      For me, I could get around it because I have a controller that can send PC and CC messages on multiple midi channels but I feel sorry for the guy or girl that is trying to chain all his midi devices and amp on one channel hoping to control Space.

      Thanks for looking into this!

    • #135294
      MaxFX
      Member

      Just a quick note as I have my rig broken down after practice and I have to be somewhere, I'll write more later.

      I try not to entertain conspiracy theories because they are just that, theories; I'm not sure where that came from… 
       
      Here's my deal:  I have five midi pedals on my pedal board and my amp head is midi controlled
      1. Timefactor
      2. Space
      3. Strymon Mobius
      4. EHX Hog2
      5. Source Audio programmable EQ
      6. Amplifier head

      Each pedal/device has it's own quirks and glitches that make every aspect of this setup extremely convoluted.  Since every pedal has certain CC's and PC #'s that are specific for functionality then I am forced to rout things in such a way so as to be able to use certain desired functions on each pedal.  Never mind that I have 5 pc changes + 2 CC messages + 2 CC expression pedals + 2 TRS relay switches (Behringer FCB1010-UNO).   Because I want to be able to use my expression pedals for the Hog2 and the Timefactor and the Space AND THE MOBIUS I have to have three of those on one channel because the HOG2 is a major board hog and pretty much requires it's own channel which is very non-flexible unto itself.  The Mobius and Hog require CC for on and off states so those two pretty much consome all CC's I have.  I have some leway with expression pedals but it's limited because three devices are on one pedal channel.  I'll play around with the configuration some more but it just sucks that I have to use one patch.  I'm probably just being a big baby about that though because at least I can use a different patch for each song whereas with my Sole mate I got one sound for a whole set…  Like I said, I'll play around a bit with one patch and see what I can do.  I'll report back when I get some of this sorted out.

    • #141800
      robcl
      Member

      I just updated to the latest firmware and were very disappointed that the issue with reloading the same preset hasn’t been fixed. Any news on this?

    • #144457
      benjamin91
      Member

      Ok, so I own a Timefactor and was planning on getting the Space pedal to complete my midi controlled rig.. The latency issue with the space really is a deal breaker. Has this really not been fixed yet? This complaint was first made 5 years ago. I’m definitely not an expert, but it seems like it’s definitely a possiblity to fix since Strymon’s Big Sky doesn’t seem to have any of the same issues. Thanks. 

      • #144458
        gkellum
        Member
        benjamin91 wrote:

        The latency issue with the space really is a deal breaker. Has this really not been fixed yet? 

        Space in particular has a more sophisticated spillover than the other pedals where it tries to seamlessly crossfade between two algorithms.  This added some additional latency to preset loading.  In more recent releases we made the spillover time user adjustable.  You can actually turn it off for the quickest possible preset loading.  

      • #144460
        wedelich
        Moderator
        Eventide Staff
        gkellum wrote:

        benjamin91 wrote:

        The latency issue with the space really is a deal breaker. Has this really not been fixed yet? 

        Space in particular has a more sophisticated spillover than the other pedals where it tries to seamlessly crossfade between two algorithms.  This added some additional latency to preset loading.  In more recent releases we made the spillover time user adjustable.  You can actually turn it off for the quickest possible preset loading.  

         

        Show More...

        We have also sped up preset loading in general since 5 years ago.  We don't really get much complaints about it anymore (that I know of), so I think most people are finding it acceptable.  

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      • #144463
        benjamin91
        Member
        wedelich wrote:

        gkellum wrote:

        benjamin91 wrote:

        The latency issue with the space really is a deal breaker. Has this really not been fixed yet? 

        Show More...

        Space in particular has a more sophisticated spillover than the other pedals where it tries to seamlessly crossfade between two algorithms.  This added some additional latency to preset loading.  In more recent releases we made the spillover time user adjustable.  You can actually turn it off for the quickest possible preset loading.  

         

        We have also sped up preset loading in general since 5 years ago.  We don’t really get much complaints about it anymore (that I know of), so I think most people are finding it acceptable.  

         

        Sweet! Sorry for saying “really” a lot and also for possibly sounding like an ass in my initial comment. So the complaint back in 2011 about a 2 second delay when switching presets isn’t likely to happen? On a practical level, 95% of the time it’s not a big deal, e.g. between songs. But something I do every once in a while is switch from playing really ambient swells to playing either a lead part or rhythm part that just requires a simple room reverb. Possibly a dumb questions.. But when I do this, it would likely work well to switch towards the end of the swell and then the reverbs could cross fade seamlessly to make for a smooth transition? 

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      • #144467
        gkellum
        Member
        benjamin91 wrote:

        But something I do every once in a while is switch from playing really ambient swells to playing either a lead part or rhythm part that just requires a simple room reverb. Possibly a dumb questions.. But when I do this, it would likely work well to switch towards the end of the swell and then the reverbs could cross fade seamlessly to make for a smooth transition? 

        Yes, that's the idea with the Spillover feature — to make a smooth transition between different reverb sounds.

         

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