Timefactor and Space on Mesa Dual Rectifier Loop FX

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    • #111358
      al.diorio
      Member

      Hi there,

      i'm a eventide user since 2000. I've bought time factor and space about 6 year ago, and i've used them on a custom audio od100 head till now. No problem with this amp.

      I recently  bought a mesa boogie dual rectifier, 3 channel. During the first rehears i've notice something strange in the sound. After some tests, i've understood that both time factor and space are the responsible of this ugly sound that me and other people noticed. 

      This happen in the loop fx of the amp and in chain between guitar and amp; alone or together with other stomp boxes. Obviously i've tried with other reverb and delays, like the green one by line 6 and the digithech reverb, in all combination possible. The response of this tests is: with no one doubt the eventide stomp boxes are the responsible of this problem.

      What i've heard is similar to a push-pull (i don't know the exact word in english, in italian is "controfase"): the electrical term who describe a sort of signal duplication… like a chorus but… horrible. And a signal loss, of course.

      My opinion is: mesa boogie put in front of my hears a defect that was there from the beginning, due to it's precise sound response.

      Can someone tell me if there's something to do to correct this problem?

    • #125354
      MarcoR
      Member

      It sounds like the mesa has a parallel loop and the amps you've used in the past had a serial loop. You're having phase issues due to the dry analog signal  running parallel to the AD converted signal and the latency the conversion introduces. Try turning kill dry on.

      The problem you will run into with kill dry is you will not be able to run serial  out the Timefacor into the Space because it will feed the effected signal only. Your options are:

      1. If the amp has a switch to toggle between serial and parallel set it to serial or use a serial loop if available.

      2. Use a splitter and a mini mixer with both Eventide units in killdry; split the signal out of the parallel effect send (a y-cable will work) to the Timefactor and Space, then out the pedals to a mini mixer (like RJM) then back to the parallel return.

      Hope that helps.

    • #125367
      al.diorio
      Member

      Of course, thank you so much for your help and your smart solution!

      The only thing i can't understand is:

      if the problem start from the fact that my loop fx is in parallel, why if i put my time factor, or space, or both, in chain between my guitar and amp (guitar to eventide stomp boxes to amplifier) the sound result is the same? Obviously the switch guitar/line on the back of the pedal is set up for that type of configuration.

      Finally: why other digital effects doesn't have this problem on my parallel loop fx? Why eventide is the most expensive brand in commerce but has latency problem? 

    • #136178
      MarcoR
      Member

      I
      can only guess what the issues may be without knowing everything in the signal
      path and hearing what you are hearing.

      Having the issue in front of the amp would be something entirely
      different. Of course using time based effects in front of an amp with anything
      more than light gain does not sound good at all.

      In
      front of an amp with only a clean sound, it should sound good. But, it will
      likely not sound exactly the same as plugging the guitar directly into the amp
      for a number of reasons; i.e. the buffer, the amp input seeing a different
      impedance and even cable capacitance.  

      So,
      being you are using a mesa, I’m guessing at least half the tones you seek are
      high gain. Therefore, using the effects in the loop is necessary. Try this…
      Plug the guitar direct into the amp to eliminate any other variables. Connect
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      only one Eventide pedal into the loop. Make sure Killdry is on and set the BYP
      TYP to RLY (relay).

      With
      the pedal bypassed (off) it should sound no different than the guitar plugged
      in direct with nothing in the loop.

      With
      the pedal engaged you should hear the effect (use the mix knob to set the level)
      and you should hear your pure amp tone mixed with the effect without any
      latency or artifacts. Check that the input light is green not red (if it lights
      up red only sometimes it may be ok but all the time the signal is too hot). If
      you only hear the effect at this point and no dry signal, it is a serial loop,
      not parallel. If this is the case, I would suggest getting a Suhr mini mix II.

      If
      this works (with only one pedal in the loop) then get a splitter and a mini
      mixer like I suggested.

      Report
      back with your findings.

      Marco 

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    • #136186
      al.diorio
      Member

      Thnx! I'll make this test in a couple of days and i'll keep you in touch.
      All the best! 

    • #136217
      al.diorio
      Member

      Hi Marco!

      So, i've followed your instruction. After a sw update of both of space and time factor

      1) i've activated killdry and RLY
      2) i've connected just one of the stomp boxes on the fx loop
      3) my gtr direct on the mesa input
      4) balanced the amount of send with the amp's "Send" knob
      5) balanced the mix with the amp's "Mix" knob

      then i've moved the mix knob on the stomp box and at 100% i've listened the pure sound of guitar + the effect. So: it's parallel.

      The sound it's great. I've tried to play and switch killdry "yes", no"  a lot of time to listen if it was that the problem. It was.

      Everything fine, thnx for your help. Unfortunately, i don't understand how put BOTH of my stomp boxes (time factor and space) in the fx loop… i mean together…
      Sorry, i've read and read your post but i don't understand this step.

      Thank you again for your help, all the best.

    • #136218
      al.diorio
      Member

      I've forgot! If i need a mixer or whatever i need to buy, can you link me or exemplify with a real product and how to connect everything so i can understand what i need? Thank you again, all the best!!

    • #136219
      MarcoR
      Member

      I use the RJM mini mixer. https://www.rjmmusic.com/minilinemixer.php

      I built my own spliter tthat takes the dry amp signal and splits it to 3 seperate signals that feed the Timefactor, Space and dry back to the mini mixer. I'm going out of an Egnater M4 without a loop, so I need to have the dry signal sent to the mixer but you won't need to do that part.

      Here's my board:

      The mini mixer is the box on the left and the custom built splitter is the next small box over.

      You could simply use a Y-cable in your application to split the signal off the parallel loop.

      There are a number of other products you can use to split the signal and mix the Eventide pedals. You could get very sofisticated with it as well using something like a switchblade that would allow you to programatically change the position of the pedals or go from serial to parallel routing.

      Here are some other products you could potentially use (You won't need a splitter for these):

      Xotic Stereo X-Blender:  http://www.xotic.us/customshop/item_sxb1.html

      Show More...

      Pigtronix Keymaster: https://www.pigtronix.com/products/keymaster/

      Suhr MiniMix II: http://www.themadape.com/Suhr_MiniMix_II_Line_Mixer_p/s-minimix.htm

      And if you want the most flexable/programable option and have money to spare there is the Switchblade 8F: http://www.soundsculpture.com/products/switchblade8f.htm

      Let me know if you have any questions.

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    • #136220
      al.diorio
      Member

      Thank you very much! Your board is fuckin awesome. I love your order and precision before your pedal. Great work!

      I understood but there is the last question:

      1) i bought a Y cable
      2) i put the single end of it in the send of my amp
      3) i put the doubled end, one in the input of time factor and the other in the input of space

      then….

      i take another Y cable, putting the doubled part one in the output of the TF and the other in the output of space, then the single part of the cable in the return of the amp?

      or 

      i need to buy a mixer like one of them you linked to me and connect the output of the TF with the input of ch 1 of the mixer; and the space's output with ch 2's input of the mixer, then the output of the mixer with the return of the amp?

      Sorry, i'm feeling really stupid. Unfortunately, i need the less expensive solution… 🙁

      Thanks again for your help, i promise that's the last post.

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      All the best

      Al 

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    • #136221
      MarcoR
      Member

      al.diorio:

      I understood but there is the last question:

      1) i bought a Y cable
      2) i put the single end of it in the send of my amp
      3) i put the doubled end, one in the input of time factor and the other in the input of space

      This
      much is correct. You will not be able to use a Y cable from the pedal outputs back
      to the amp, you will need a mixer here. Y cables don't work for summing audio
      as one device will load down the other not to mention ground loops etc.

       

      The RJM mini mixer that I have is what I would recommend. It is
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      very transparent and noise free and you wouldn't want to put your great
      Eventide pedals into anything less.

       

      That said, if you're on a tight budget you could settle for any
      small line mixer that you have around or get something like this:

      http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/nady-mm-141-4-channel-mini-mixer

      for $23 it would be worth a shot.

      Best of luck!

      Marco

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    • #137339
      Ulfern
      Member

      Hi Marco, i think your set up might be the solutions for my mesa parallel loop problems aswell. I ha a question though, what happens when you combine two of the factor pedals? I guess you get 3 signals then, one from each of the factor pedals + the dry signal from the amp. Im only wonderingering how that sounds lite, does it "work"?

      PS: Thanks for good explanations above in this thread!

    • #137340
      Ulfern
      Member

      This seems ideal. A passive splitter and mixer, what do you think? http://www.thomann.de/se/art_splitmix4.htm

    • #137342
      MarcoR
      Member

      That mixer may work for you
      and the features look cool for an all in one solution. I just don't know how
      transparent it will be as I’ve never tried it. Running the effects in parallel
      sounds great but you have to consider if you want to feed one effect into
      another for certain combinations.

      Also, because the infamous Mesa loop will
      bleed some dry signal back and cause phasing issues, you may not have any luck
      with serial routing and running everything parallel may be the only option (with
      killdry enabled on all processors).

      The problem with that is that if you are
      using a whammy effect for example, you would not be able to apply reverb and
      delay to the pitch altered signal. I would find someone that can do the effect
      loop mod on the Mesa and still use a splitter/ mixer configuration. 

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