Timefactor and Space on Mesa Dual Rectifier Loop FX

[al.diorio]

Hi there,

i'm a eventide user since 2000. I've bought time factor and space about 6 year ago, and i've used them on a custom audio od100 head till now. No problem with this amp.

I recently  bought a mesa boogie dual rectifier, 3 channel. During the first rehears i've notice something strange in the sound. After some tests, i've understood that both time factor and space are the responsible of this ugly sound that me and other people noticed. 

This happen in the loop fx of the amp and in chain between guitar and amp; alone or together with other stomp boxes. Obviously i've tried with other reverb and delays, like the green one by line 6 and the digithech reverb, in all combination possible. The response of this tests is: with no one doubt the eventide stomp boxes are the responsible of this problem.

What i've heard is similar to a push-pull (i don't know the exact word in english, in italian is "controfase"): the electrical term who describe a sort of signal duplication… like a chorus but… horrible. And a signal loss, of course.

My opinion is: mesa boogie put in front of my hears a defect that was there from the beginning, due to it's precise sound response.

Can someone tell me if there's something to do to correct this problem?

[MarcoR]

It sounds like the mesa has a parallel loop and the amps you've used in the past had a serial loop. You're having phase issues due to the dry analog signal  running parallel to the AD converted signal and the latency the conversion introduces. Try turning kill dry on.

The problem you will run into with kill dry is you will not be able to run serial  out the Timefacor into the Space because it will feed the effected signal only. Your options are:

1. If the amp has a switch to toggle between serial and parallel set it to serial or use a serial loop if available.

2. Use a splitter and a mini mixer with both Eventide units in killdry; split the signal out of the parallel effect send (a y-cable will work) to the Timefactor and Space, then out the pedals to a mini mixer (like RJM) then back to the parallel return.

Hope that helps.

[al.diorio]

Of course, thank you so much for your help and your smart solution!

The only thing i can't understand is:

if the problem start from the fact that my loop fx is in parallel, why if i put my time factor, or space, or both, in chain between my guitar and amp (guitar to eventide stomp boxes to amplifier) the sound result is the same? Obviously the switch guitar/line on the back of the pedal is set up for that type of configuration.

Finally: why other digital effects doesn't have this problem on my parallel loop fx? Why eventide is the most expensive brand in commerce but has latency problem? 

[MarcoR]

I
can only guess what the issues may be without knowing everything in the signal
path and hearing what you are hearing.

Having the issue in front of the amp would be something entirely
different. Of course using time based effects in front of an amp with anything
more than light gain does not sound good at all.

In
front of an amp with only a clean sound, it should sound good. But, it will
likely not sound exactly the same as plugging the guitar directly into the amp
for a number of reasons; i.e. the buffer, the amp input seeing a different
impedance and even cable capacitance.  

So,
being you are using a mesa, I’m guessing at least half the tones you seek are
high gain. Therefore, using the effects in the loop is necessary. Try this…
Plug the guitar direct into the amp to eliminate any other variables. Connect
only one Eventide pedal into the loop. Make sure Killdry is on and set the BYP
TYP to RLY (relay).

With
the pedal bypassed (off) it should sound no different than the guitar plugged
in direct with nothing in the loop.

With
the pedal engaged you should hear the effect (use the mix knob to set the level)
and you should hear your pure amp tone mixed with the effect without any
latency or artifacts. Check that the input light is green not red (if it lights
up red only sometimes it may be ok but all the time the signal is too hot). If
you only hear the effect at this point and no dry signal, it is a serial loop,
not parallel. If this is the case, I would suggest getting a Suhr mini mix II.

If
this works (with only one pedal in the loop) then get a splitter and a mini
mixer like I suggested.

Report
back with your findings.

Marco 

[al.diorio]

Thnx! I'll make this test in a couple of days and i'll keep you in touch.
All the best! 

[al.diorio]

Hi Marco!

So, i've followed your instruction. After a sw update of both of space and time factor

1) i've activated killdry and RLY
2) i've connected just one of the stomp boxes on the fx loop
3) my gtr direct on the mesa input
4) balanced the amount of send with the amp's "Send" knob
5) balanced the mix with the amp's "Mix" knob

then i've moved the mix knob on the stomp box and at 100% i've listened the pure sound of guitar + the effect. So: it's parallel.

The sound it's great. I've tried to play and switch killdry "yes", no"  a lot of time to listen if it was that the problem. It was.

Everything fine, thnx for your help. Unfortunately, i don't understand how put BOTH of my stomp boxes (time factor and space) in the fx loop… i mean together…
Sorry, i've read and read your post but i don't understand this step.

Thank you again for your help, all the best.

[al.diorio]

I've forgot! If i need a mixer or whatever i need to buy, can you link me or exemplify with a real product and how to connect everything so i can understand what i need? Thank you again, all the best!!

[MarcoR]

I use the RJM mini mixer. https://www.rjmmusic.com/minilinemixer.php

I built my own spliter tthat takes the dry amp signal and splits it to 3 seperate signals that feed the Timefactor, Space and dry back to the mini mixer. I'm going out of an Egnater M4 without a loop, so I need to have the dry signal sent to the mixer but you won't need to do that part.

Here's my board:

The mini mixer is the box on the left and the custom built splitter is the next small box over.

You could simply use a Y-cable in your application to split the signal off the parallel loop.

There are a number of other products you can use to split the signal and mix the Eventide pedals. You could get very sofisticated with it as well using something like a switchblade that would allow you to programatically change the position of the pedals or go from serial to parallel routing.

Here are some other products you could potentially use (You won't need a splitter for these):

Xotic Stereo X-Blender:  http://www.xotic.us/customshop/item_sxb1.html

Pigtronix Keymaster: https://www.pigtronix.com/products/keymaster/

Suhr MiniMix II: http://www.themadape.com/Suhr_MiniMix_II_Line_Mixer_p/s-minimix.htm

And if you want the most flexable/programable option and have money to spare there is the Switchblade 8F: http://www.soundsculpture.com/products/switchblade8f.htm

Let me know if you have any questions.

[al.diorio]

Thank you very much! Your board is fuckin awesome. I love your order and precision before your pedal. Great work!

I understood but there is the last question:

1) i bought a Y cable
2) i put the single end of it in the send of my amp
3) i put the doubled end, one in the input of time factor and the other in the input of space

then….

i take another Y cable, putting the doubled part one in the output of the TF and the other in the output of space, then the single part of the cable in the return of the amp?

or 

i need to buy a mixer like one of them you linked to me and connect the output of the TF with the input of ch 1 of the mixer; and the space's output with ch 2's input of the mixer, then the output of the mixer with the return of the amp?

Sorry, i'm feeling really stupid. Unfortunately, i need the less expensive solution… 🙁

Thanks again for your help, i promise that's the last post.

All the best

Al 

[MarcoR]

al.diorio:

I understood but there is the last question:

1) i bought a Y cable
2) i put the single end of it in the send of my amp
3) i put the doubled end, one in the input of time factor and the other in the input of space

This
much is correct. You will not be able to use a Y cable from the pedal outputs back
to the amp, you will need a mixer here. Y cables don't work for summing audio
as one device will load down the other not to mention ground loops etc.

 

The RJM mini mixer that I have is what I would recommend. It is
very transparent and noise free and you wouldn't want to put your great
Eventide pedals into anything less.

 

That said, if you're on a tight budget you could settle for any
small line mixer that you have around or get something like this:

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/nady-mm-141-4-channel-mini-mixer

for $23 it would be worth a shot.

Best of luck!

Marco

[Ulfern]

Hi Marco, i think your set up might be the solutions for my mesa parallel loop problems aswell. I ha a question though, what happens when you combine two of the factor pedals? I guess you get 3 signals then, one from each of the factor pedals + the dry signal from the amp. Im only wonderingering how that sounds lite, does it "work"?

PS: Thanks for good explanations above in this thread!

[Ulfern]

This seems ideal. A passive splitter and mixer, what do you think? http://www.thomann.de/se/art_splitmix4.htm

[MarcoR]

That mixer may work for you
and the features look cool for an all in one solution. I just don't know how
transparent it will be as I’ve never tried it. Running the effects in parallel
sounds great but you have to consider if you want to feed one effect into
another for certain combinations.

Also, because the infamous Mesa loop will
bleed some dry signal back and cause phasing issues, you may not have any luck
with serial routing and running everything parallel may be the only option (with
killdry enabled on all processors).

The problem with that is that if you are
using a whammy effect for example, you would not be able to apply reverb and
delay to the pitch altered signal. I would find someone that can do the effect
loop mod on the Mesa and still use a splitter/ mixer configuration. 

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