Timefactor Touch Knob Sensitive

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    • #107541
      jec15
      Participant

      Just curious if this feature would ever be a part of any new updates. I've been waiting a long time for this one…

      Basically, when you're dialing in your exact ms delay time (not tap tempo) and having more control and access over the delay time when refining it. I understand the encoder knob can be used to gradually go up and down once you get into what your delay time is, but the problem comes when you have to acces what your delay time is at while you're editing.

      Example: Say you just want to go up or down in the slightest increments (1ms). To access this feature you have to barely touch the delay time (once I tried to breathe on it just so I can see what my delay time was at and didn't want it to spike so much) which makes it jump anywhere from 10-50 ms even before you're able to access the fine tune encoder button. I find myself having to either write down where I'm when editing or just wing it while losing so much time in the process since I'm going backwards sometimes. This is for when the time is just a little to fast or slow and you really need to work with increments of 1ms to go up or down in delay time.

      Will there ever be a button that can just flash what your current delay time is so that you can fine tune with encoder button instead of having to touch the delay time button first then the encoder? That's where the problem is. When you touch your delay time, it always moves, off the chart jumps should be the word…

      Note: I have catchup on. This barely works in this situation. Ideally it should. That would be a step in the right direction. I don't know why sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't.

      Is there any other way to go about this or potential updates for guys that just want to dial in and fine tune delay time ms with ease.

      Thanks!

    • #121359
      mtarolli
      Member

      + 1

      Having the same problem when trying to fine-tune ms settings.

    • #121362
      nickrose
      Moderator
      Eventide Staff

      We could add extra buttons, but this would increase the cost and would not help current owners.

      Typically people set the delay by ear, and then use the encoder to fine tune. I suspect that if your requirements are much more sophisticated than this, you should probably be looking at a rack-mount unit. Or, some kind of MIDI controller might also help.

      My belief is that catchup works fine – it may appear not to if the knob is already very close to the preset value.

      There is no real answer to this that I can see – hopefully someone out there will have better ideas…

    • #121366
      jec15
      Participant

      A couple of things to consider. I don't think it's a manufacture hardware solution. I wouldn't think of it that way or write this off. The knobs are in place already – its just the framework and how the knobs interact/sensitivity jump is the issue. It should be mandatory that a pedal this expensive and capable of so many wonderful tones and programming features be able to have the basics down by fine tuning on the fly and not go through all these motions that work against the songwriter in editing mode.

      The 2 issues here are accessing the fine tune feature and the display of your actual delay time. Both are working against making 1ms increments and close to impossible to achieve, especially on the fly. After those 2 issues have been considered, the next component to update would be to update the catchup feature and making it more responsive to a lock function once you've edited your delay time. Maybe an option in utility/catchup/auto to go into auto lock mode with catchup, since currently it is a gamble that catchup will even activate if the preset and delay time is saved. I preyed many times catchup would activate once I've saved a delay and feedback time. No dice and then started from scratch.

      Looking into a rack mount to solve this is not the solution. I've been there and just am looking for a delay foot pedal solution for something that is quite basic to achieve. We are all making our guitar gear more portable these days, especially when consistently playing live. This pedal is being marketed as the goto solution in delay and programmable needs. Stressing the programmable needs. It's the reason I bought TF and not for all these bells and whistles. I'm among a massive amount of players out there that need digital delay time to lock, display, be edit friendly, and then able to set accordingly to songs in increments of 1ms. Especially electronic based songs where the guitar sometimes leads the tempo. Electronic music is still very much alive and being played by young guitarists everywhere. Tap tempo doesn't cut it in these scenarios. If it did going in and fine tuning the delay time would still be VERY tedious and inconsistent per the reasons above.

      The Yamaha UD stomp has been the closest with their fine tune feature. But what worked against them was the complexity to edit that basic feature. You guys can really own the market with utilizing such a basic feature/request that would make so many delay time editors (guitarists) happy. It can be done.

    • #132505
      nickrose
      Moderator
      Eventide Staff

      We will be adding a knob lock feature to future products. Too late for V3.0, but should be in the next one.

    • #121367
      mtarolli
      Member

      I certainly wouldn't imagine that any extra buttons are needed.  The issue seems to be related to the extreme sensitivity of the knob, coupled with the necessary ability to scroll through a vast amount of data (without requiring the user to spin the knob like crazy to get to where they need to go).

      One possible solution:

      Introduce a 1 or 2 second reaction delay, so when the delay time knob is touched, the current setting flashes at the user, before the actual adjustment begins.

    • #132506
      nickrose
      Moderator
      Eventide Staff

      mtarolli:

      One possible solution:

      Introduce a 1 or 2 second reaction delay, so when the delay time knob is touched, the current setting flashes at the user, before the actual adjustment begins.

      A good thought – I'll pass it on. Would not the delay be annoying, or is it a price worth paying for the visibility ?

    • #132508
      jec15
      Participant

      He nailed it. That's the core issue. When a user once to see his/her delay time to edit the only way  is to touch (breathe on it in some cases) the delay time button, which currently throws you sometimes in 20-50 ms off where you were at. The natural instinct to edit the display would be to push in the encoder button in, the delay time you're at flashes, and then you should be able to engage the fine tune encoder button to edit up/down in small increments. Not touching the delay time knob which is so sensitive to begin with and jumps off the charts. That would life saver.

    • #132509
      mtarolli
      Member

      Personally, I wouldn't mind having to wait one second before adjusting the delay time.  For reference, the amount of time you have to hold the encoder to save presets is perfect – definitely not an annoyance.

      I think the existing catchup feature, which is great, was implemented to address this same issue.  But in some cases, especially with the delay time knob (when dialing in ms), you're not always able to see your starting point.

      Another suggestion would be to display existing settings whenever a knob is touched, and force the user to scroll the knob back to "0" before they can adjust settings – perhaps this is already similar to the "lock" function you mentioned.

      To restate the problem, It's very difficult to edit an existing delay time by a few ms…

    • #132510
      nickrose
      Moderator
      Eventide Staff

      If the delay was right, this would largely replace one aspect of catchup and knob locking, as well as fine adjustment. I'm thinking that knob changes would trigger the one second delay, during which encoder adjustments could be made, but be ignored unless they continued after this period. If it was not too annoying, it would be very useful.

      The real purpose of catchup is to avoid sudden jumps during parameter adjustment when the current knob position is far away from the preset's value. The "show me where I am" aspect is a bonus.

    • #132513
      timothyhill
      Member

      +11

      I think this is a great idea! While I've learned to get around this using catchup, and while I set my delays by ear, this would be extremely helpful when I'm making hardcopy backups of my presets.

      How about 1/2 second delay? I think that wouldn't be too short to use, but allow adjustments faster than a one second delay would (which might seem like forever when you want to adjust the knob).

      +1 on jec15's response… summed it up nicely!

      +1 on the knob lock, too.

    • #132519
      jec15
      Participant

      Yikes. Reading back my posts and seeing my grammar is a little off.

      Here's a recap:

      * VERY difficult near impossible to view current delay time and then edit increments by 1ms with ease. Ultimately, one would be using the encoder knob with direct streamlined access. Currently, this option is not available

      * To date, most guys are checking their delay time by touching the delay time knob which in most cases jumps 20-50ms from where they have been editing. Not ideal when you are in the zone and ironing out a specific delay time and/or want to export backups

      * Rethink the use of quick/immediate access to the encoder fine tune knob and/or button that shows you your current delay time (edited also) and won't change unless you engage the encoder knob. It's all about the current VIEW ability.

      * The CATCHUP function IS being doubled as a "Show me where I'm at" function since there is no ther way to "Show me where I'm at" with the current wire-frame of the pedal. This is definetly not a bonus but a critical part of editing delay. Please rethink this philosophy.

      * Revenue: Eventide has the ability to corner the delay pedal market with increased revenue and market share by showcasing this edit for granular delay editor guitarists. A large selling point for digital musicians/recording and songwriters where time is an asset not a privilege

      I added that last point in since I'm in work mode sorry 🙂

      Let's make it happen, Eventide…

    • #132522
      mtarolli
      Member

      This sounds really good.

    • #132523
      sic
      Participant

      I don't know if my answer is dumb but can't you just press the Tap
      Tempo once to DISPLAY the current milliseconds you're at then adjust it
      with the Encoder knob by 1ms increments (or more)?

    • #132525
      sic
      Participant

      sic:

      I don't know if my answer is dumb but can't you just press the Tap
      Tempo once to DISPLAY the current milliseconds you're at then adjust it
      with the Encoder knob by 1ms increments (or more)?

      Alright, what I suggested above won't work. Just checked it now. Sorry.

      The "show me what the current mS is" when turning the Delay Time knob and being able to adjust it IMMEDIATELY with the Encoder knob for very fine adjustments is a great suggestion though. I second it.

      And then also being able to use back and forth the Delay Time knob (for large increments) and the Encoder knob (for small increments) once you are in adjusting mode already.

    • #132526
      timothyhill
      Member

      Sic, that does work, but I have to either have the pedal in play mode or have an aux switch connected and set to tap. And while the delay time parameter is probably the biggest problem, I think this really applies to all of the settings, or at least the ones that have a range greater than 10. Anyway, this is just my take on it…

      What if the proposed knob delay was adjustable or at least switchable (on/off)? Those settings could be placed in the utility section in conjunction with the new knob-lock feature. Just a thought…

    • #132529
      jec15
      Participant

      Unfortunately, that won't do it in either mode. In 'active' it brings you back to a default of 500ms (odd) and in bank mode it just lets you scroll through your banks.

      Ideally, that button (tap) should let you view your current Dly Time setting so you can edit on the fly or at least be able to push in the encoder button so you can view your Dly Time and then have option to edit by 1ms with the encoder knob. That's pretty much the general consensus happening in this thread. Right now we're all using the Dly Time knob to view our current setting which is jumping off the charts due to sensitivity and CATCHUP is being doubled up as a lock of sorts to just view. Rarely does it let you just view without jumping.

    • #132531
      sic
      Participant

      Actually it DOESN'T work as I quoted myself back in page 1 haha.

      Reason is when you press Tap Tempo, it only displays the mS you did WITH the tap tempo; not with mS adjustments you made with the Delay Time knob. So it is useless if you have been adjusting the delay time with the Delay Time knob.

      So say for example the last tap tempo you did was 200ms, then you adjusted the Delay Time knob to 301ms. Then you suddenly want to bring it down a notch to 300ms. Pressing the Tap Tempo will show you 200ms instead of 301 ms. So when you turn the Encoder to adjust, it will adjust the tap tempoed 200ms and not the CURRENT 301ms delay time.

    • #132532
      sic
      Participant

      jec15:

      Unfortunately, that won't do it in either mode. In 'active' it brings you back to a default of 500ms (odd) and in bank mode it just lets you scroll through your banks.

      Ideally, that button (tap) should let you view your current Dly Time setting so you can edit on the fly or at least be able to push in the encoder button so you can view your Dly Time and then have option to edit by 1ms with the encoder knob. That's pretty much the general consensus happening in this thread. Right now we're all using the Dly Time knob to view our current setting which is jumping off the charts due to sensitivity and CATCHUP is being doubled up as a lock of sorts to just view. Rarely does it let you just view without jumping.

      How about what I suggested that when turning the Delay Time knob it would show you what the current mS is then being able to adjust it RIGHT AWAY with the Encoder knob? And then again with the Delay Time knob if you suddenly decide to adjust in large increments and back and forth with the Encoder again for small increments?

    • #132533
      jec15
      Participant

      Right on. Either way it's just way too many steps and inconsistent for wanting to do a basic function – which is to see where you're at and then edit (delay time and feedback) seamlessly with the encoder knob. I've been waiting a long time for any delay pedal company to apply this to the basics of digital delay programming for working/writing musicians.

    • #132534
      jec15
      Participant

      "How about what I suggested that when turning the Delay Time knob it would show you what the current mS is then being able to adjust it RIGHT AWAY with the Encoder knob? And then again with the Delay Time knob if you suddenly decide to adjust in large increments and back and forth with the Encoder again for small increments?"

      That's how it is now. We're trying to get away from that since it won't lock when you touch the delay time knob and you're only resort is the CATCHUP function being enabled which barely locks the Delay Time (and feedback) when you're editing. Supposedly that's a bonus feature and not the intended purpose. Regardless, a hard coded VIEW feature needs to happen with these updates (since I'm not alone with this request/frustration) which then leads to an EDIT by ms feature with the encoder knob. We got the edit feature down with the encoder knob, it's just getting to that point is the communal struggle. Big struggle.

    • #132535
      sic
      Participant

      jec15:

      Right on. Either way it's just way too many steps and inconsistent for wanting to do a basic function – which is to see where you're at and then edit (delay time and feedback) seamlessly with the encoder knob. I've been waiting a long time for any delay pedal company to apply this to the basics of digital delay programming for working/writing musicians.

      Well I'm sure Eventide is more than capable in helping us with this issue. Shouldn't be that hard to implement.

    • #132536
      timothyhill
      Member

      Sorry guys, should've said it "should" work like that (hitting tap once)… wasn't in front of my pedalboard. But yeah, sounds like sic is suggesting, too, leaving the encoder active so you can adjust in small increments right away.

    • #132537
      jec15
      Participant

      All of these suggestions are great. Whatever button is the easiest for them to program on their end that translates into synergy to VIEW then EDIT with the encoder.

      It should be a 1-2 punch (VIEW.EDIT.SAVE). Literally that easy with regards to editing ms.

      I would go as far as paying extra if this custom update happened.

    • #132559
      zikamuricpe
      Member

      jec15:

      All of these suggestions are great. Whatever button is the easiest for them to program on their end that translates into synergy to VIEW then EDIT with the encoder.

      It should be a 1-2 punch (VIEW.EDIT.SAVE). Literally that easy with regards to editing ms.

      I would go as far as paying extra if this custom update happened.

      How about this scenario: the first knob change just shows current delay time at display and puts the knob in a "now I'm at the currrent delay time position and I'm ready to change values" state; nothing happens until the second knob change, which actually edit the current parameter.

    • #132561
      nickrose
      Moderator
      Eventide Staff

      zikamuricpe:

      nothing happens until the second knob change

      You can't really do that – the knob is an analog device, so just touching it can produce multiple changes. You'll almost certainly have to have a time delay based scheme, which will be annoying to some, especially those who adjust parameters during live performances.

    • #132563
      timothyhill
      Member

      Just a thought… if the delay was defeatable/adjustable via a utility setting, it wouldn't have to be annoying to live performers.

    • #132566
      mtarolli
      Member

      Exactly – Perhaps as an either/or option with the catchup feature. 

      I'm thinking if the delay time knob flashed the current setting upon moving the knob, I'd no longer use catchup.  The only reason i use it now is because it provides some chance of showing me what my current settings are before i make changes.

      Then again, what we're discussing seems (to me) like it's a possible enhancement to the existing catchup feature.  With catchup turned on, the pedal already displays/flashes the existing setting when the knob is touched.  It's only when the knob is physically very close to the existing setting that you don't get the display of the existing setting. 

      The problem is that since the knob is so sensitive, and the spectrum of settings it controls is so wide, that the physical position of the knob is useless as far as providing feedback to the user.

    • #132567
      zikamuricpe
      Member

      nickrose:

      You can't really do that – the knob is an analog device, so just touching it can produce multiple changes. You'll almost certainly have to have a time delay based scheme, which will be annoying to some, especially those who adjust parameters during live performances.

      Yes, but if it is possible to program a scheme where the first touch of a knob does not change the parameter for a certain amount of time, wouldn't it be possible to program a scheme where the first touch doesn't change the parameter at all, until the second touch appears? It would be a simple two step scenario: first touch just to see where am I, and second touch to edit the parameter.

      Sorry if I'm tedious, I'm just afraid that my English is not good enough so maybe I didn't explain my idea well!

    • #132568
      nickrose
      Moderator
      Eventide Staff

      Not tedious, just missing my point. There is no second touch as such – there will be multiple touches which can't be told apart. This is the nature of a real world control – you may think you only touch it once, but the thing reading the knob sees many micro-touches.

      It has to be done with some kind of time delay.

    • #132570
      timothyhill
      Member

      Zikamuricpe, I think you are actually talking about the same thing. The delay Nick is talking about occurs between the first and second touch.

      I think Nick's trying to explain that the knob, an analog device, is sending its settings to a digital device, the DSP in the pedal. In analog, there are an infinite number of points between point "A" and point "B". In digital, the knob's position is exactly measured about a million times a second (guessing on exact DSP clock speed). So, unless you can "first touch" the knob in less time than one clock cycle (about 1/1000000th of a second), the DSP will register multiple positions. Physically, this is impossible to do, so the DSP will always register multiple touches. This is why a delay would need to be programmed in, so the DSP can distiguish between the first and second touch.

      I know this isn't the best explanation in the world, but… Analog (the knob) is infinite and digital (the pedal) is finitely precise. There will always be issues when the two interact because you cannot finitely define infinity.

    • #132573
      zikamuricpe
      Member

      Thanks Nick and timothyhill, now I understand. Sorry for insisting!

    • #132597
      jec15
      Participant

      Hi all. Just up an update. I had two sessions this week where just having the ability to view what my delay time and feedback was in mid editing would have significantly optimized my time. My workaround was to grab a piece of paper and write down each Dly Time edit on the fly.

      Note: Catchup and Saving every edit still made it still jump off even when just trying to view my progress.

      You know its bad when a drummer says 'it would be cool if that pedal showed you where you were at'…

    • #132623
      KH Guitar Freak
      Member

      I have an idea, but I'm not sure if it works. How's about the ability to double tap the encoder knob to then display each of the parameters at a time? When in that mode, twisting the encoder knob counterclockwise or clockwise would scroll through a parameter at a time whilst displaying the current values…

    • #132624
      KH Guitar Freak
      Member

      As to my previous reply, I know that double tapping would lead to changing the tempo from ms to fraction tempo (or whatever it's called, I'm not that smart with the technical terms). Perhaps write the algorithm such that the double tapping would have to be in quick succession to then display the value of a parameter???

    • #121778
      jbdarrow
      Member

      catchup is fine for seeing presets…that works. adjustment on  time delay is not a good idea (live situations). a better idea is to have sensitivity log (exponentially / stepped) programmed for say the delay time knob function/which requires the chip to view the voltage and adjust small amounts…with a time function that steps up the increments if the knob is continually turned…it is possible with a decent logic chip…not sure what hardware eventide has for their control interface.

      It would solve the touchy control knob problem.

      I don't have the equation off the top of my head.

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