TriceraChorus – Factory Preset Syrupy Leslie

[apalazzolo]

The ET factory Syrupy Leslie uses the Vibrato setting on the Chorus/Vibrato/Chorale knob and I love that preset.  However, the Vibrato setting can be a bit overpowering at a fast-rotor (modulation) speed (about 6.5 Hz).

I’d like to know if there is a clever way to turn down the Vibrato “intensity or depth”.  It appears that that can’t be done using the Chorus/Vibrato/Chorale knob.  Is it possible to achieve an equivalent/similar result by turning down the Right, Center, and Left knobs or something else?

All thoughts appreciated.

 

[brock]

I went deep down the rabbit hole with Tri-brato went it was first launched.  Here’s what I do:

• Delay CCW
• Depth L = 1**
• Depth C = the de facto Vibrato depth adjustment.
• Depth R = 1**
• Detune Mix, Env Mix, Env Rate = 0
• Detune & Tone = L0 R 0 & Flat.

That way, the middle LFO phase is all that’s active, and you can use Depth C to tame it or exaggerate it.

** I got in the habit of never turning Depth L-C-R to OFF.  I got some nasty pops when sweeping the Depths OFF – 100 with an expression pedal.

** Which is a nice way to pan from centered mono to stereo (and back again), with Depth C and Depth L&R mapped in opposite directions.

For a realistic Vibrato, I keep the LFO Rate in an authentic range, around 1.00 – 5.00 Hz.  Certainly no higher than 5.50 Hz., but with rotary & synthetic sounds, all bets are off.

With an H90, you could probably achieve similar results to the above by dialing the Program Mix back from 100%.  Since Chorus mixes some dry with modulation, and Vibrato does not, that seems like another viable option.

[brock]

Actually, let me amend that.  You get a cleaner centered Vibrato with Depth L & R set to OFF, due to the automatic ‘voice’ compensation.

It seems to me something got tweaked along the way, if only my own setups here or perceptions.

[apalazzolo]

Thanks Brock. This gave me the confidence to go back at it.  And, for my purposes just radically lowering the Center Depth worked.  I had tweaked that before but it didn’t seem to do anything.

I have a video of a guy demonstrating Greg Allman’s part in Dreams I’ll Never See using an actual B3 and Leslie.  I’m trying to match that as closely as I can and TriceraChorus is beating out Rotary and Spacetime so far.  I’ve read that Leslies commonly spin the rotor at about 5.75 Hz max and horn at 6.75  Hz max.  So I’m splitting the baby and using 6.33.  On the low end, they both spin at less than 1 Hz but I’m going with about 1.3 so my old ears can hear it better.

PS The idea to use the three depth controls as a manual panner is genius!

Much obliged.

~Tony

 

[brock]

Cool, Tony, whatever works.  I’ve tried the closely emulated Leslie build myself, and Rotary just didn’t do it for me.  I feel like I’m missing something there, as many people adore the Rotary algo.

We just never gelled.  FWIW, I’ve tried using combinations of Even-Vibe, TremoloPan, HarmaDillo, and even the O.G. Vibrato; singles & doubled up algorithms.  Better, but most often, that will hog up both H90 Preset slots.

[apalazzolo]

Okay Tom.  I’ve taken your thoughts to heart and spent much of my H90 time in the last three months on organs and Leslies.   I too have struggled with Rotary on occasion but I also have some vague memories of success too.  Here’s what I think I have learned (and this is all embodied in my 2-14-24 Leslie/organ post on PatchStorage):

Leslies have a &$%@ ton of bass.  So you may need to take that out.  Josh Smith did that by turning the Rotary rotor/horn control waaaay up (40/99).  That’s like applying a highpass filter.  Then he turned the rotor speed off.  I think he nailed it.

Before I discovered the Josh Smith approach, I tried to do essentially the same thing:  I used EQCompressor as a highpass filter and a sweepable mid-boost.  Not bad, but someone with better ears could prolly do better.  Also, that takes both halves of the H90.

SpaceTime doesn’t seem to have this subwoofer bass issue so it can fake a Leslie and provide some reverb and delay (all in one preset slot) to boot.  It’s not bad.

PolySynth itself has a modulator and sine/triangle pulse width modulation is in the ball park of a Leslie.  I, however, couldn’t get it to be that convincing. Maybe it’s good enough in a pinch but …

I find the TriceraChorus to be the best of the lot for both guitar and organ.  It’s prolly no coincidence that the tone control can be a pretty serious highpass filter.  So I dialed that back a LOT (like -60 or more). I also dialed “Depth C” down to 10-20 (as you suggested) but (so far) I kept right and left depth at 9/11 respectively.  IMHO it sounds great.  I wish it had a bit of verb or delay, but IMHO it still sounds really great.

Relatedly, you may recall I had a crackle problem using PolySynth for tonewheel organs.  Through trial and error I learned to find some pretty sweet sounds with the -oct volume turned down (from 100 to about 80).  That significantly reduced the crackle in my context.  I don’t understand it, but the crackle seems to arise internally to the algorithm and it depends on a number of things.  And, by “internal to the algortihm” I mean there was no way I was overloading the input.  In any event …

It’s been a long slog but I think I’ve made some progress.  If you are interested, you can find the resulting workproduct on PatchStorage.

Thanks again for your help.

 

[brock]

Yeah, you’ve been busy.  Funny how the H90 takes us down our own unique rabbit holes (sometimes different ones daily, for me).  I can’t seem to get away from the PolySynth, then suddenly some oil can delay concepts spring to mind. Which somehow leads to re-pitching a pitch-shift.   Reminds me of a line I read from an Eventide nuts ‘n’ bolts article.  Focus was on the UniVibe / Riptide, but applicable across the spectrum:

Eventide has always been a company that’s looking forward. Trying to come up with new effects, or new ways of doing the classics. Sometimes the best way to put yourself in a position to come up with something truly new is to learn about what’s come before.

– (emphasis mine) Woody Herman, Senior DSP Engineer and Fan of the Rad Sh*t His Coworkers Make

I’ll check out your findings. I’m still holding out some hope for an Instant Phaser “rotary”.  Out-of-phase for its Doppler effects.  Now if only it had Instant Flanger’s Low Cut alongside its Age for the ‘growling’ … Sometimes part of the craft is keeping it all in one Preset slot, but it’s great to have the luxury of two-in-one.

I just need to clean up this pile of drafts I have here first before they start to go sour.

[birthofahero]

Hey I was curious where you got that info about how Josh Smith uses the Rotary algo?

[apalazzolo]

Mr. Herman has just about the best workplace title I’ve ever seen!

Yeah man.  Show me the way with the Instant algos and I’ll be right behind you.

May I ask?  What is your thinking on the Program Mix control?  I always keep it at 100 because I basically don’t hear any appreciable difference when I’ve tried other values.  I’ve noticed you often use that at about 50%.  Do you have a general philosophy for setting that that you can share?

 

[apalazzolo]

birthofahero wrote:

Hey I was curious where you got that info about how Josh Smith uses the Rotary algo?

He posted it on the Net somewhere quite a while ago.

I have included his preset (basically) without any changes in my PatchStorage post for Organs and Leslies.

[birthofahero]

I think I found the video!

Thanks for bringing it to my attention, love Josh’s rotary sound.

[brock]

More info here:

https://www.eventideaudio.com/forums/topic/josh-smith-h9-leslie-settings/

[apalazzolo]

Yep.  That’s the one.

He also demonstrated a more complex H90 version on YouTube about a year ago.   I don’t think he posted the settings and I think you need separate powered speakers for the horn and rotor yada yada yada.

I have a H90 program using TriceraChorus that uses that concept (separate horn and rotor presets in parallel).  But I just run it stereo out into my headphones. I think it sounds great.

[brock]

I’m still stuck on the Instant brainworms.  Just what I needed: another rabbit hole.  Blame goes to that “Fan of the Rad Sh*t”.

 

So, you want me to give up my ‘trade secrets’?  Joking, they’re hardly secrets. When I’m running through a mixer for isolated parallel, I go your route.  Effectively, you can do the same thing in-the-H90-box.  I try to make my uploads as universally useful as I can.  And I’m guessing most Insert Progs are used inline with the amp(s), like my live / programmer setup.

Here’s my basic philosophy.  Start out from scratch with both Presets at 100% wet*** (when there’s a Mix parameter) in Series or in Parallel.  Then 50% Program Mix in Parallel with all of that.  It’s my master balance between dry & wet, and it works well with the modulation effects that often do the same (ex. – phasers).  Great place to begin.

Often it ends up staying right there, because it has the results I want to hear.  I figure if it’s too much wet or dry for anyone else’s taste, it’s easy enough to tweak down or up.  That’s the reason I call out that particular parameter setting in every description that accompanies my uploads.  (There is never enough room for me in the Program Notes).

The exception(s) prove the rule(s).

• I like to tie Program Mix to an expression pedal, for the ability to add extra emphasis or a crescendo to the wet signal.  Often not a lot … sweeping 40-45%.  I have also had to go in the opposite direction (50-35%).  The combination of parameter mappings in the expression pedal become overwhelmingly wet or loud (I’m looking at you, PolySynth).
• There are also times when 50% is way too much for my own tastes.  On the rare occasion I’ll upload something more subtle, Program Mix will get dialed down.  The philosophy at my 1st recording studio internship was dial down (reverb, in this case) until you can no longer hear the effect, then take it back up a notch.  Philosophy #2 – Reverb is the opium of the bad musician.  I never forgot that, even as I break those rules.
• Another case – mainly in a Series routing, but sometimes in Parallel – is that I want to hear just enough of the instrument alongside the effect to enhance the attack portion.  So, Preset A / B Mix might get dialed down from 100% to 75-80%.  The same goes (in Series) when I want Preset A (at 100%) to ‘bleed in’ some of its processing intact.  Then dial back Preset B Mix to 25-50-75%, now having a blend of A effect with A+B effect.
• OK, one more:  Both Presets in Parallel, map the Mix parameters in opposite directions to the (P) HotKnob.  I have an entire Program List that uses this tactic to blend the amounts of two similar but distinct algorithms.  Then adjust the Program Mix.

So that’s my TL;DR story on the Program Mix control, and I’m sticking to it.  You asked for it, Tony.

***I’m speculating that you exclusively use the Preset Mix controls for your balancing acts?  That’s what came to mind when you said that you heard no appreciable difference with Program Mix.

I look at that this way: You’d have Preset A dry & wet in some proportion, and Preset B dry/wet in some proportion.  Then when you dial back Program Mix from 100%, you’re folding in more dry, diluting the amount of effect(s) coming through.

Maybe I’m missing something in your setup / routings.  I’ll do a deeper analysis on your uploads to see where we may differ on approach & philosophies.

[apalazzolo]

Lordy! You give more thought to that one knob than I usually give to a whole program. LOL

Thanks.  That’s very helpful.

Yep, you got me right.  As a novice and as a prior H9 user, I start with blended preset mixes as I have always done.  I observed the difference in your presets, but never really considered starting with preset mixes max’d (or close to it) and working the Program Mix.

“There is never enough room for me in the Program Notes.”  I was thinking the same.  That might be a matter for the “Feature Request” thread. Double the character limit.

Speaking of feature requests:  Isn’t it time that TriceraChorus “Swirl” took it’s rightful place along side the other TriceraChorus parameters/knobs so it can be controlled by hotswitches, expression pedals, etc.?

Swirl can be a great option as is but I find I’m not using it because I have to hit several switches specifically to get at that alone.  Also, I can’t save a program with Swirl “on” as a default state.  I’m thinking adding one Swirl Level knob would be enough and that knob would be deactivated at zero (maybe the label would change to “unused” at zero) so that it would be backward compatible at zero (at zero, Swirl would be controlled by Chorus Mix or Detune Mix as it has been).  One would need to intentionally turn that above zero to shift control to that new parameter/knob so there would be no surprises.

 

[apalazzolo]

Hey Brock,

“Here’s my basic philosophy. Start out from scratch with both Presets at 100% wet*** (when there’s a Mix parameter) in Series or in Parallel. Then 50% Program Mix in Parallel with all of that. It’s my master balance between dry & wet, and it works well with the modulation effects that often do the same (ex. – phasers). Great place to begin.”

This post inspired me to take Program Mix seriously and when I did I found most of my programs sounded better with a 50% program mix. That’s now a standard part of my process.

Much obliged for sharing your wisdom!

 

[brock]

Glad you found that useful, A.M.P.  It works in my particular setup as a perfect starting point.  The “right” way will depend on which one of the H90’s routing options you choose.

Of course there are situations where 100% / Kill Dry might be more appropriate (synths, slo-gear, distortions …).  But I do like to hear my dry tone.  Separate out the pick attack and build the Program to either blend with or surround it.

[brock]

apalazzolo wrote:

Lordy! You give more thought to that one knob than I usually give to a whole program.LOL …

My lot in life.  Blessing and a curse.

… “There is never enough room for me in the Program Notes.” I was thinking the same. That might be a matter for the “Feature Request” thread. Double the character limit …

I believe that I have already, but I don’t think it is a popular request.  Seems to me that would be a minor hit to expand it.  What is it – 256 characters?  I never have counted them out.  I just know that I have to abbreviate everything and selectively edit in the most important stuff.

… Speaking of feature requests: Isn’t it time that TriceraChorus “Swirl” took it’s rightful place along side the other TriceraChorus parameters/knobs so it can be controlled by hotswitches, expression pedals, etc.? …

I don’t know if it can be, relegated to an algo-specific Performance Parameter status?  Maybe so.  I do love what it does in its own right.

… Also, I can’t save a program with Swirl “on” as a default state….

Damn, I meant to check that last night.  I could’ve sworn that it could be latched & saved as ON.  Maybe I’m conflating it in the H9, or another parameter entirely.  I often take advantage of the latched Performance Parameters that stay engaged while toggling through the HotSwitches.  Now that’s bugging me.  I will follow up, Tony.

[tbskoglund]

We have found that Swirl will not save in the ON state and are looking into a fix for this. I’m not sure if we’ll consider making it a non-perform parameter, but hopefully being able to save the ON state will be helpful for you.

We can also consider adding more space for Program notes.

[apalazzolo]

Much obliged Tyler.

Swirl: IMHO being able to save the ON/OFF state of Swirl per program would be helpful but, if possible, being able to save that state per hotswitch would be much more helpful even if no separate parameter knob is possible.

Program Notes:  By the way, the ability to see the notes by hovering a cursor over the “i” icon is great.

One more thing about the Control app: I have no idea how common this is but on my video screen the GUI sizing only allows me to see eight full parameters with numerals (and up to four more partial parameters) for each preset (screenshot attached).  So I constantly scroll up and down to see/edit preset parameters.  I never mentioned this b/c I assumed it was a personal issue with my computer, but I saw a recent Leon Todd video with the same problem.  I, of course, have tried various display resizing options but none also worked well with my other software (and the larger parameter icons are easier to manipulate with a cursor than smaller ones).  Assuming this isn’t a rare/personal issue, I had a thought:

Would it be possible to add an arrow-icon that would allow a user to selectively roll the program-parameter-strip/GUI down and out of the way?  I know the preset/program-search-window has this capability.  This would allow users to selectively see four more preset parameters per preset, which (at least) I want to see and manipulate far more often than the program parameters.

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[rck]

brock wrote:

Swirl can be a great option as is but I find I’m not using it because I have to hit several switches specifically to get at that alone.  Also, I can’t save a program with Swirl “on” as a default state.

Great point. Swirl and Bouquet Delay’s Pitch Jump are features that I would like to be in the ON state when the Program is called up. I’ve been meaning to add that wish to the feature request thread here.

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