Any reasons to buy a H8000FW in 2014?

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    • #111298
      homer
      Participant

      Hi Eventide,

      I am currently thinking about buying a H8000FW for a long time. Now what really was and still is some sort of a deal breaker is the fact that the company has not shown too much interested in creating an updated version of VSIG since 7 years. While I really appreciate the latest OS updates sig has been a week point eversince.

      I mean in abundance of native plugins this machine is marketed as the most sophisticated and powerful hardware FX box of all times. While emphasis is put on the fact that you can build your own algorithms, yet you only provide Vsig in a 2007 version that has a user experience that I would compare to something like Apple delivering a Commodore 64 interface for its MacPro in 2014. And all of this for a 5500 Euro price tag. 

      On top it is outright annoying that you haven't been able to put out a working OSX version that you support on your own w/o a third party considering what you charge for a unit knowing that many people in the business are into Apple.

      Not being able to edit or control the unit via Firewire in 2014 is another thing that makes me wondet if I will end up like one of those SSL 4000 console owners that I always laughed about, who are trying to keep their 20 year old PCs going in order to have an automation and thus to be able to enjoy the sound of one of the best studio consoles ever built.

      And don't get me wrong, I am intelectually capable of doing complex algorithms on my own via Vsig on my 7000, but at some point as a professional you feel abandoned with the current state of affairs for Vsig.

      I do understand that it is more profitable for the company to reuse the Harmonizer series technology, to put it into a small white box and let the users pay 20 bugs in the App store for all those algorithms that have been around since the days of an H3000 (BTW I bought one just for fun but it went back to the reseller the next day for exactly this reason) but that is only a repackaging of the old stuff.

      So my question to you people at Eventide is if after all the efforts in the home and semipro market there is going to be some love for the pro users providing us with better tools? Or is this Harmonizer stuff now finally considered to be a thing of the past and the Appstore our future? Why should I go all in now apart from sound quality?

      An honest response would be appreciated.
      Show More...
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    • #125216
      nickrose
      Moderator
      Eventide Staff

      Hi Homer – glad you like our stuff. Here is an (I believe) honest response.

      homer:

      the fact that the company has not shown too much interested in creating an updated version of VSIG since 7 years

      We
      believe that only about 10% of our HarmonizerTM users use Vsig. To significantly
      improve Vsig would be an enormous amount of work, and it is not clear to us that
      enough people would use it to justify this.

      People
      who do not work in the software field often have little idea how much work
      (many man-years) is involved in producing a modern quality application – this
      is very difficult to justify for a small population. As an example, many of the
      specialist software tools we use are riddled with bugs, and yet cost many
      $1000.

      Show More...

      homer:

      And all of this for a 5500 Euro price tag.

      Vsig
      is a free utility, not included in the price of an H8000FW.

      homer:

      it is outright annoying that you haven't been able to put out a working OSX version

      We
      would certainly like an OSX version, but this is again a lot of work to benefit
      not many people. We have worked on a cross-platform version, but this has not
      proved to have adequate graphics performance.

      homer:

      Not being able to edit or control the unit via Firewire in 2014

      Don't
      understand this – the H8000FW supports MIDI over FireWire, so any OS or
      application that will drive this will be fine.

      homer:

      at some point as a professional you feel abandoned with the current state of affairs for Vsig

      We
      create all our algorithms with Vsig – this is why we wrote it. It is certainly
      not perfect, but we find it to be entirely useable.

      homer:

      only a repackaging of the old stuff

      While
      a number of the Stompbox algorithms are indeed based on those in Harmonizers,
      an enormous amount of work has been done to both improve them, and to fit them
      to the different form factor. Calling it "repackaging" somewhat underestimates
      what has been achieved. One of the most common requests we receive is to
      support the Stompbox algs on the rack products – this rather confirms their
      value

      homer:

      Why should I go all in now apart from sound quality?

      What you would find in a Harmonizer is, as you say, sound
      quality, but also:

      • The ability to design your own algorithms – flawed though you
        may consider the tools to be, they work, and the range of modules is huge.
      • A vast number of included algorithms (way over 1000 on H8000).
      • A wide range of connectivity (FireWire, AES, SPDIF, ADAT) –
        you'll not find many boxes that handle all this (with routing as well).
      Show Less...
    • #125226
      homer
      Participant

      Hi Nick, first of all I really do appreciate to get an honest answer and that this post was actually published.

      While I do not question that there is a lot of work done in the stompbox area and that there are improvements to the algorithms I wonder simply why a similar effort should not be possible in the Harmonizer area? From a business perspective it is clear to me that you want to sell your products into the consumer market as you can achieve higher sales numbers and revenues. While in the area of stompboxes there is still request for actual hardware there might be less demand in the consumer and semi-pro market due to plugins and probably that is going to intensify.

      On the other hand the question for me is why nobody thought about making the whole line more affordable and attractive and to adjust it over time? The benefit of the plugins is not the sound quality ,it is the UI and being connected into a DAW. At least you understood the first point by creating the H9. So why don't you do that for the Harmonizers? I am actually working for a software company, and I saw one guy doing a realtime raytracing renderin plugin in 6 month, so whats your point?

      There must be some money left for the Harmonizers as since 10 years the price of the units has been the same, yet hardware all around us is getting cheaper and cheaper. At least I don't see anyone paying the same amount of money today for a CD player made in 2004.

      Actually when a company tells me that an editor for a 5k$ unit is not included (and was meant as a inhouse developers tool for the geeks) and on the other hand the marketing dept. of the same company is trying to sell me a H9 500$ with the storyline that the Ipad editor is t h e  tool to unleash the full potential of the unit, I am out of words. So when you tell me that only 10% of the users are actually using Vsig is it because of the tool or despite it? When I you actually google Vsig most of the posts are of people that would have liked to use it but found it too difficult and gave up.

      Sorry but your arguments in my book sound like a stretch for past and current decisions that effectively manouvered the Harmonizer line of products into the corner where it is today. With all the plugins around I am still in the market for hardware and I guess there are a lot more out there but  i need to see more support and love for a 5k product from a company in 2014 to justify such an investment. Get me some cool editor that looks and feels like 2014 and support the line of Harmonizers with the same love and capacity as you do with the stompboxes and I am sold on 2 H8000fws.

      Thanks anyway for taking the time and effort and allowing me to have my arguments here.

      Love my 7000 anyway!

    • #136022
      nickrose
      Moderator
      Eventide Staff

      Hi Homer – I'm glad I didn't scare you away with my replies.

      Part of the problem is that the demand for rack hardware (and indeed hardware of any kind) is reducing over time, creating many problems for us and making it harder to justify investing time in new hardware products or improving old ones. This is just something we have to come to terms with.

      The current rack products cost us much more to make than they did, as many of the parts are obsolete and can only be obtained at high prices. On the other hand, a total redesign might be more than we want, especially considering the above.

      The editor we supply for the H9 is a preset editor, not an algorithm editor so the two cannot really be compared. An H9 without the App would be hard to use – the same is not true of the H8000 which comes with 1500 presets.

      I don't think that it is the inadequacies of Vsig that results in the low usage (maybe a little) – the main issue is that most of our users do not have the time, interest or skills required to make use of it. It's not clear to me how it could be improved in such a way as to make it vastly easier to use, even if we had the time. We could improve the cosmetics, but I don't think this is the issue.

      Glad you  like your 7000, even though it does not compare to an H8000FW ..

    • #136024
      homer
      Participant

      Hi Nick,

      totally understand that a company must make money to survive and if revenues are shrinking in one segment it surely makes sense to shift capacities to other domains that deliver them.On the other hand developing a H9 is not in line with your arguments.

      I mean soundwise it cannot really be compared to the latest harmonizers, but from an engineering and architectural point of view it surely outperforms my h7000 in most aspects.

      I was curious and bought one to find out what it could for me but there were several issues. First one is that there is no way to combine i.e. a space and a modfactor preset. To do this I would need two units, one running the space and the other the modfactor preset. I could probably live with the idea to purchase two units as it would be cheaper than buying an Eclipse if your designers had only thought about having a digital i/o such that you could connect the two units w/o the need for two times an AD conversion.

      Second point being that I was not able to deep dive and do my own algorithms. I sold my Eclipse to have a H7000 therefore, now that would be a step back. Apart from that I am not really into shelling out 20$ for a preset that I have in the H7000 already, not being able to transfer my in-app purchases being another.

      If you are clever you would follow other companies like UAUDIO in a sense that the H9 is sort of the Eventide Solo DSP card and to make it scalable like they did with Duo, Quad and Octo. Call  the more powerful H18,H36 and H72, add an algorithm editor on the big ones and I am sold. That could be a hardware platform that consumer and pros could use alike while consolidating hardware and plugins. 

      …Dreamin….

    • #136530
      Animus
      Member

      Agreed. How about a rack H9000FW based on the newer H9 tech?  I love my H8000 but it is a *** to use, but worth it of course.

    • #136721
      vaultstudio
      Member

      So my H8000FW is the last of Eventides professional recording studio rack units ?  Sad

    • #136722
      nickrose
      Moderator
      Eventide Staff

      Obviously we can't say anything about future products, but we think that there is still a place for rack units.

    • #136724
      MFPhouse
      Participant

      There are many reasons to by a H8000FW and also in 2014.What you want more ?

      The only thing "I" can say is that i get more and more in Surround 5.1 96k/ 24bit Projects , …so if you often like to work with Large Algorithm you can reach the DSP Power of the H8000fw.

      So , we are talking about more Power ?

      The other thing is , Fittings around the H8000FW 

      Visg for OSX , Tablets are out there , BlueTooth , WiFi, Thunderbolt etc etc

      What do you think Nickrose ?

      Cool

    • #136776
      homer
      Participant

      This is exactly what it is all about!

      Eventide has taken the challenge to adopt to nowadays technologies and in a sense did well with the H9 ( although I don't agree to their idea of the algo business).

      Now here you have the H9 users arriving in the 21st century with their product and you have the guys over here that discuss shelling out 5k for a unit that is sure a professional tool but interface wise stuck somewhere in 1999.

      Eventide has made a decision to push hard on the consumer side of business. Ok. But clearly that price has been paid by the pro domain with less innovation and very little improvements you see on the "our" side.

      Even geeks like me realize that a full Ipad or PC/Mac integration with modern applications on top is the bottom line today. Come on, even 80$ stompboxes like the series from TC have a USB integration and an Ipad editor.

      I am ok if Eventide would not be considering to totally redesign the audio engine, the user interface and  connectivity + Vsig need to be modernized asap! Why should I shell out 1800 USD for a EVE/NET when the H9 users get the same thing on Ipad/Android for way less? A wifi connected Ipad is on my console anyway….

      I think you are slowly running out of arguments, especially as you prove us that you are able to innovate and lead if you want to….So the question in fact is, where is Eventide heading to in the pro market?

    • #136904
      millertime
      Participant

      I love my h8000fw works flawless and I don't give a *** about vsig right now. the unit itself

      has enough algorithms in it for a lifetime.  the quality is in a class by itself. 

    • #136948
      homer
      Participant

      If it works out for you that's fine with me….

      As a sound designer I want and I need to have control over my algo's and improve and alter them until they really fit my needs.

      If VSIG wasn't something very substantial for my workflow I would have sold my 7K, the Orville and 7600 already and would have bought something half the price or went totally plugin. To be honest, the UAD stuff like the 224 Reverb is getting pretty damn close to the real thing…Let's see how long I can stick with the Eventide stuff….definitely moving away if there is nothing substantial to happen in the pro corner…

    • #137229
      tomo88
      Member

      Nick – I also appreciate your candor on these forums.  Has Eventide discussed as an option soliciting VSIG users for payment in advance for a next-gen product?  Kind of a "crowd-sourcing" model.  If nothing else, it would validate your guesses about the user interest in VSIG.

      I love my H800FW but am interested in ways of making it more relevant to the DAW-production world.

    • #137516
      pisco
      Participant

      tomo88:

      Nick – I also appreciate your candor on these forums.  Has Eventide discussed as an option soliciting VSIG users for payment in advance for a next-gen product?  Kind of a "crowd-sourcing" model.  If nothing else, it would validate your guesses about the user interest in VSIG.

      I love my H800FW but am interested in ways of making it more relevant to the DAW-production world.

      +1

    • #137747
      homer
      Participant

      Looks like the thread is dead…no answer is sometimes an answer, too…;-)

    • #137757
      nickrose
      Moderator
      Eventide Staff

      There are a number of reasons to use an H8000FW:

      1) Over 1000 algorithms – this is much like buying almost every plugin ever written.

      2) Huge amount of I/O – 4 great quality analog in/out, 8 AES in/out, 16 Firewire in/out, etc.

      3) Vsig to create your own algorithms (note – some study required).

      If the above appeals, you know what to do. If it does not, the H8000 is not for you.

    • #137792
      homer
      Participant

      Hi Nick,

      thanks for the reply, nevertheless I feel like we are in a time loop Smile . I mean it is like going back to the beginning of the thread. We all know what this unit is capable of but we have been discussing what it takes to really make it a platform to invest and as I pointed out there is a lot to be desired. I am not planning to go all over it again as enough has been written.

      And as much as I appreciate the someone from Eventide is responding I was waiting to hear something about the future of the pro-audio Harmonizer platform but unfortunately Eventide has been very good at avoiding straight answers on this particular issue. Whatever…..time will tell….

      John

    • #137794
      nickrose
      Moderator
      Eventide Staff

      Alas, like most manufacturers who wish to remain in business, we can't talk about future developments before they happen. Sorry.

      I would suggest that you look at the product as it is today, and see if it suits your purposes. Any further developments will then be a bonus.

    • #144741
      gang
      Member

      I have 8000FX I believe for 8 or more years already.

      It paid back itself many times and provided tremendous creative potential.

      I have few H9 and plug-ins.

      Still, H8000 is still absolutely relevant machine and its optional remote is something addictive, although expensive.

      Although I do 80% of job ITB, it is hard to exclude hardware of such calibre and it is more likely for me to buy one more than to sell mine.

      Of course Eventide might ask/call current owners directly whether they are ready to support some crucial upgrade of plugin support for H8000 at certain price and if substantial number of users really need it they would accept (I would be the first to buy such option). As IT guy would expect that cost of application would be in range of 50-100.000 $, as the base of math.

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