Eclipse V3.5 Block bypass externals – problems

[Mr_Clean]

Hi,

Been testing the new V3.5 on the eclipse and seem to have run into a problem with the Block A & Bypass external.

First up I have no problems setting this up and it certainly works ! It great in fact, its a very powerful feature.

However ! It appears to not respond to MIDI Control Changes consistently. Heres why:

I use a Voodoo Lab Ground Control Pro. I have setup 2 instant access switches (using midi CC's) assigned to Block A & B bypass. The Voodoo Lab is set to transmit the CC with each preset. This insures that the LEDs on the Ground Control reflect the status of the programmed preset.

The problem is that the Eclipse appears to not differentiate between 0 (off) – 1 (on) with each button press – i.e bypass on the Ground Control is CC + 0 (off) and engaged 1 (on). BTW I have the External A & B setup as on/off on the Eclipse NOT momentary. I have however tested various combinations, and appears clear you may have not implemented the CC + 0 (off) and engaged 1 (on) on the Eclipse !

Note, for example the POD ProXT responds correctly as do my other units (Lexicon & TC)

Can I suggest if you have not done this, you do so ! It hinders a very powerful feature of the unit for live playing via MIDI control systems such as the Ground Control.

[IDeangelis]

Hi Mr.Clean

our units need to see a CC value transition between 63 and 64 to activate the change of status (OFF/ON).

In other words, a CC has a 128 steps range; the first half range, 1>63, won't change the current status of a parameter. As soon as you hit 64 the status will change.
If a parameter is OFF, the next time you hit 64 it will change to ON..and the next time a value of 64 is reached, it will get back to OFF.

Simply program your pedalboard to send the CC with value equal or higher than 64 to activate a BYPASS status.

best
I

[Mr_Clean]

Hi, Ok setup the Ground Control to cc 65 & 66. Works inconstantly (but better than before) ! Sometime appears to be in sync other times not. Not sure but I think maybe going from a single FX block preset (band taps) to a dual in series preset (Diamond Rain), it looses the correct bypass status. what do you think ? cheers Mike

[IDeangelis]

Mr_Clean:

Hi, Ok setup the Ground Control to cc 65 & 66. Works inconstantly (but better than before) ! Sometime appears to be in sync other times not. Not sure but I think maybe going from a single FX block preset (band taps) to a dual in series preset (Diamond Rain), it looses the correct bypass status. what do you think ? cheers Mike

Mike, I think you didn't read my reply with attention.
Check the values I reported as yours are incorrect.

best
I

[IDeangelis]

I see where you misinterpreted the thing.

It's not about the number of the CC you must use; it's about the value THAT CC sends out.
Every CC sends out a value between 0 and 127 OR 1 and 128, depending on how the choosen unit is made.

You can choosw ANY CC but it has to send out a value of 64 to activate a change.

Ok?

cheers
I

[Mr_Clean]

Hi, The Ground Control does not allow you to change the value of a CC only the actual CC change. Interestingly Never had a this problem with the Eclipse Global bypass.

[IDeangelis]

Too bad they didn't implemented CC actual values choice; it should be part of any professional level product.

Actually I see that the system bypass seems to be broken in V3.5 as I can't remote it with any CC at all. Only FX Blocks seemto work correctly.

I

[Mr_Clean]

Can Eventide recommend any foot controller that work correctly with your products? thanks

[IDeangelis]

Mike

I just reloaded V3.0 on my Eclipse and the system bypass worked exactly as I described, needing a transition of a CC value of 64 to be activated, BUT it has the TRIGMODE function where you can select MOMENTARY vs. ON/OFF. When choosing MOMENTARY the bypass is engaged with any value transition, so a 0 to 1 wuld work fine. That's probably what you have used in the past.

Regarding a MIDI controller, anyone that supports MIDI CC vales range programming will work fine. Check the User Manual on any manufacturer website. The Rocktron ALL ACCESS will work. Others may suggest more options.

best
I

[Mr_Clean]

I am currently not using Eclipse Sys bypass but the loop bypass on my Pod Proxt. I gave up on the Eclipse bypass due to level problems. I have to say I am disappointed with Eventide on the issue over CC values. I use my Ground Control with a Pod Pro / Lexicon PCM 80 / TCD2 and Eventide is the only brand I use that has compatibility issues with the Ground Control. The Ground Control is very popular controller unit at a great price.

[IDeangelis]

Mike

unfortunately there is no standardized way to work in this area, other than the midi protocol itself. An evidence of this is what your unit's manual says in the CC description area:

"Each MIDI device supports Continuous Controllers differently,
so you should consult the manual for that device to determine
which controller to use, and what parameters may be controlled
with it."

Unfortunately Digital Music Corp. decided to not support full CC value programming in both the original Ground Control and the newer Pro (?) version.
I understand your frustration. Some units may work fine out of the box, others require a more advanced approach. It's not a problem of compatibility as MIDI is a standard. But the way this standard may be used/implemented can be different from product to product.

A fine MIDI controller supports different possibilities, giving the user the ability to control any piece of gear in any way. I'm sure that other products support CC value programming. The AllAccess is a bit expensive, I understand, but there is a reason for that.

It would be useful if other users could post their suggestions about MIDI pedalboards that support programming their switches as MIDI CC messages send with any preset value in the standard range of 1>128 ( or 0>127).

You may also want to check Axess Electronics as they seem to have nice units:
http://www.axess-electronics.com/

all the best
I

[Mr_Clean]

I just hooked up the Ground Control to my Mac & ran a MIDI monitor application.

Heres the "on" to the Eclipse:
20:30:14.243 From MIDI Port Control 2 Sustenuto Pedal 127

Heres the "Off"
20:30:56.726 From MIDI Port Control 2 Sustenuto Pedal 0

For the Pod for example it is sending:
For on:
20:31:41.068 From MIDI Port Control 1 Controller 25 127
For off:
20:32:17.174 From MIDI Port Control 1 Controller 25 0

So, to be clear you are saying the 127 should be 65 & the 0 64 (for off) ?

thanks

[IDeangelis]

Try this: use a pedal with your GControl, not its switches. Assign a MIDI CC to the pedal and patch the same CC# to an Eclipse external # that you will then patch to FX A Bypass. You will see that when you rock the pedal in its midway the Eclipse will change Bypass status. As soon as the pedal falls below the mid position, Eclipse will change bypass status again.
If the GControl display can show the actual MIDI value, you will see that the trigger action is at 64.

I'm saying that any CC with value between 0 and 63 doesn't trigger anything. A value between 64 and 128 will trigger the event. So the triggering threshold is 63<>64.

A pedal would show this very clearly. I'm using a slider here, on a desktop MIDI controller.

best
I

[Mr_Clean]

Ok, cool idea ! The Ground Control bypassed is at 0 – 64. 65 – 128 is active………….

[Mr_Clean]

Just checked the Pod Pro CC mappings. 0 – 63 off, 64 – 127 on. My Ground Control works with this flawlessly. I think its fair to say the Ground Control is transmitting the correct info to the Eclipse. Perhaps this is a bug in the Eclipse OS ? Mike

[IDeangelis]

Hi Mike

it works fine here. Eclipse is responding correctly to CCs remoting FX A and B Bypass. If I understand correctly you are sending program changes AND CCs for FX blocks Bypass at the same time. There might be something in that which is causing the problem.

We need an *accurate* description of what exactly is programmed in a switch information you send to Eclipse, including every type of MIDI info (Prog.Ch#/CC#/MIDI channels/etc.).

Also keep in mind that if you have a rig with several MIDI units chained from the MIDI Thru of each one, some information may not get to the target device. In such case a MIDI splitter should be used to manage MIDI info in parallel streams. Try all your tests connecting the MIDI pedalboard directly to the Eclipse, nothing else in between.

thanks
I

[Mr_Clean]

Hi, ok the Eclipse is connected directly to the Ground Control. Eclipse on Ch2, MIDI thru to POD xt (off) Note Phantom power running down MIDI cable from Eclipse to Ground Control.
Following is a MIDI stream selecting patch 33 Diamond Rain on my Eclipse:
22:08:09.584 From MIDI Port Program 1 1 POD PROGRAM
22:08:09.584 From MIDI Port Program 2 33 ECLIPSE PROG
22:08:09.585 From MIDI Port Program 3 0 NA
22:08:09.586 From MIDI Port Program 4 16 NA
22:08:09.586 From MIDI Port Program 5 1 NA
22:08:09.587 From MIDI Port Control 1 50 0 PODxt Mod BYPASS
22:08:09.588 From MIDI Port Control 2 65 127 Eclipse Block A ACTIVE
22:08:09.589 From MIDI Port Control 1 107 0 POD Loop BYPASS
22:08:09.590 From MIDI Port Control 2 66 127 Eclipse Block B ACTIVE
22:08:09.591 From MIDI Port Control 1 26 0 POD Comp BYPASS
22:08:09.592 From MIDI Port Control 1 25 0 POD DRIVE BYPASS
22:08:09.594 From MIDI Port Control 1 28 0 POD DELAY BYPASS

Heres another:
22:12:16.664 From MIDI Port Program 1 36
22:12:16.665 From MIDI Port Program 2 26
22:12:16.666 From MIDI Port Program 3 20
22:12:16.666 From MIDI Port Program 4 1
22:12:16.667 From MIDI Port Program 5 1
22:12:16.668 From MIDI Port Control 1 50 127 MOD ACTIVE
22:12:16.669 From MIDI Port Control 2 65 127 ECLIPSE BLOCK A ACTIVE
22:12:16.670 From MIDI Port Control 1 107 127 POD LOOP ACTIVE
22:12:16.671 From MIDI Port Control 2 66 127 ECLIPSE BLOCK B ACTIVE
22:12:16.672 From MIDI Port Control 1 26 0 COMP BYPASS
22:12:16.673 From MIDI Port Control 1 25 127 DRIVE ACTIVE
22:12:16.674 From MIDI Port Control 1 28 127 DELAY ACTIVE

cheers

[Mr_Clean]

Another find: Seems the problems start when I switch to a program that has only one block rather than two. So if I select Band Taps & select Diamond Rain (or something with 2 blocks) the Eclipse does not consistently go into the correct bypass status based on the Ground Control.

[IDeangelis]

Mike

thanks for the LOOONG string…but that doesn't tell much.

Please describe:
-how many Program Changes are you sending at the same time and list them and their MIDI channels.
-how many Control Chnages are you sending at the same time and list them and their MIDI channels.
We don't need the strings from your computer.

Also, try to test the Eclipse by ONLY sending the MIDI commands for it, removing all other commands aimed to other units.

best
I

[Mr_Clean]

New program from the Ground Control, sending to Eclipse on chan 2 Prog 1 Reson Echos. 2 Blocks. GC sending Block A & B engaged CC 65 – 127, 66 – 127. Eclipse does not engage A & B. It engages both blocks in bypass despite the Ground C showing active. Sending only 1 program to Eclipse only, all other midi sends disengaged.

Then selected another program Echo Space of God both blocks engaged, Eclipse FXA on FXB off despite Ground Control showing Engaged. cheers

[IDeangelis]

Hi Mike

a couple of hours tests here.

First test- Switching between 2 presets having both 2 FX blocks:

Pr.Ch.1 on MIDI Ch.2 + CCs 65 & 66 at 0 recall #234 ResonEchoes with both FX Blocks Bypasses OFF (no Bypass)

Pr.Ch.2 on MIDI Ch.2 + CCs 65 & 66 at 127 recall #203 DesertGtr with both FX Blocks Bypasses ON (Blocks are Bypassed).

The test works correctly!

Second test- Switching between a preset w/2 FX Blocks and another w/only 1 FX Block: 

Pr.Ch.1 on MIDI Ch.2 + CCs 65 & 66 at 0 recall #234 ResonEchoes with both FX Blocks Bypasses OFF (no Bypass)

Pr.Ch.2 on MIDI Ch.2 + CCs 65 & 66 at 127 recall #174 Reverb8 with FX Block A Bypass ON (Block is Bypassed).

Also this test works correctly.

We are using different MIDI controllers. Mine is a desktop Peavey 1600X (deeply configurable professional unit). This device has 16 sliders/16switches. I am using SCENES. The first SCENE stores 3 sliders positions, reflecting first part of test #1; the second SCENE stores their positions for second part of test #1 (the difference is which MIDI prog change is sent out and the CCs values). So with a single switch I can change SCENEs, pretty much like on a MIDI pedalboard.

Same thing with test #2.

I have no solution for you as we do not have your pedalboard.

You may try reinitializing your Eclipse (CLEAR SETUP) and check if this helps. After this, keep Eclipse as the only unit connected to the pedalboard, program it ONLY for the test described above (I have used MIDI MAP 1, changing the presets assignments for Pr.Ch. 1 and 2 only). This may help in case Eclipse is not responding correctly. Please try this.

all the best

Italo

[IDeangelis]

 Also use a short MIDI cable!

I 

[nickrose]

The main bypass external is indeed broken in V3.5. We apologize for this and will issue a fix shortly.

Otherwise, this and the FX A/B externals work as Italo describes, with one strangeness that may be the cause of the confusion.

When the control is in the ON/OFF mode, it toggles the bypass state when the MIDI input goes from below  64 to 64 or above, and toggles again when the MIDI input goes from 64 or above to below 64. This means that the control operation depends on the previous bypass state rather than being absolute.

This is not quite as one would expect – it would be more normal for it to be ON at 64 and above, and OFF at 63 and below. In most cases the described implementation will give the same result, but with fast operation it could get out of step.

If you truly need a defined ON/OFF state you can use a SYSEX message as described below – this will work with the current V3.5 release.

F0 1C 70 01 3C 31 30 30 33 30 35 30 37 20 31 F7 – for bypass on

F0 1C 70 01 3C 31 30 30 33 30 35 30 37 20 30 F7 – for bypass off

Note that the F0 and F7 are standard MIDI sysex start and end codes and may be supplied automatically by your pedal. 

[Mr_Clean]

Hi Nick, thanks for the detail. I guess (in my view) the point of the A/B bypass is for live use or improvisation – to get more out of the unit – ie use as 2 independent FX units. In this regard for it to work reliably one needs a defined on/off state for each block controllable via a hands free controller that can be received by the Eclipse from a Prog Change (from the Ground Control) that includes CC information. Most other units work in this way – my POD Pro is excellent in this regard. My Ground Control does not have the ability to program sys ex. Are you suggesting in your message this will be fixed in a future OS?

[nickrose]

It's a little difficult to know what to do here.

On one side, this is the way that Eclipse has always worked, so changing it may cause problems for people.

This would also be a surprisingly major change, so might cause other problems.

On the other side, the way it currently works is probably not for the best. 

Requires some thought. 

[Mr_Clean]

Nick, another thought. What if the A& B bypass was engaged via the foot control inputs on the back – not MIDI. It would require the purchase of a MIDI switcher that sends latch type switches, but it would avoid MIDI altogether for this function. Do you think the Eclipse would respond consistently in this way? cheers Mike

[nickrose]

 The same issues would apply. Save your money – we'll fix it.

[John01W]

Please do…I have the Ground Control Pro as well(very popular and nice controller). From what I can tell it does the cc# thing the same as CAE and pretty much all of the others. I haven't even installed the new OS because of this. Finally got the cc# bypass of the FX blocks and it doesn't
work right….:( How long before this issue is worked out. Thanks

[nickrose]

 The fix for the remote bypass issues will be available in a few weeks.

We are also adding a feature to invert the control for pedals like Ground Control, so that sending a hi MIDI signal can either bypass or defeat bypass, as desired.

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