GR300 Metheny sounds from Hotsawz?

[apalazzolo]

Has anyone been able to replicate the Metheny GR300 synth sounds with Hotsawz?  I’d love hear your thoughts.

I kinda sorta tweaked around aimlessly with the factory presets and didn’t get very far.   I’d be great to hear from someone who has nailed it.

 

[brock]

I posted a pile of HotSawz presets here a few years back.  I doubt that I targeted a GR300 in there, but it’ll be something else to play around with.  Seems to me that all/most of the tools are there in HotSawz for a reasonable emulation.  It may take some wizardry to capture that GR300 quirky design & nuance.

https://www.eventideaudio.com/community/forum/stompboxes/broken-sawtooth-66-hotsawz-presets

[apalazzolo]

Many thanks Brock.  I’ve downloaded these and will go through them soon.

To all: On a related note, does Hotsawz do everything better than Synthonizer (which I didn’t find to be useful at all).  I think the answer is, yes.  Have I overlooked anything? 

[apalazzolo]

I had a posting SNAFU.  Here i some text that was supposed to accompany my attachment.

I’d love to see if anyone can coax a GR300 out of Hotsawz.  I tried.  I failed.  IMHO Hotsawz is very flexible but designed to do other things.

Ironically, Synthonizer factory preset TROMBONE FACTOR comes close (was someone at Eventide was gunning for this sound too?). 

I have attached my best work (which took an hour or so and ended up very close to TROMBONE FACTOR … oye).  It works best in a limited range (D,G,B strings in the middle of fretboard) and is only one sound (Metheny seems to use at least three variants).    It does have reverb, which is a small plus over Hotsawz.  But it might sound closer to a GR300 if you turn the reverb off and run it into a Lexicon since that is a big part of Metheny’s sound too.

 

[apalazzolo]

Brock,

I forgot to mention that I did go through your Hotsawz list.  Although there is a lot of cool stuff there but I didn’t find anything close to a GR300. 

On Synthonizer, I put together a POORMANS FREQOUT based on a preset you made and mentioned above.  That was a clever use of Synthonizer.  I am attaching my best effort.  I also posted mine on The Gear Page while giving you attribution.  Please let me know if mine is anywhere near yours.  Thanks.  

 

[brock]

While we’re digging up old artifacts, here was that synth wah preset I mentioned earlier.  There are ‘hidden’ wahs all over the H9 algorithms; each with some unique character.  This one reminds me of a pissed-off Mutron.  Dirty & unpredictable.  A 10-50 SWEEP B cutoff frequency range seems about right for the EXP PED..

[apalazzolo]

HA!!!!!! The Flex switch!!!!!  It was right there staring me in the face!  Just the right tool for simulating a feedback harmonic.   I guess I got used to the idea that it was useless.

So the Freqout has two modes of operation.  Something like on/off and momentary.  I did intend expped use to simulate the momentary mode.  You can also leave the mix on 50/50 to simulate the on/off mode if you play long tones with a short rest between each.  It is only effective within limits but I bet the Freqout has a similar limitation.

That reverb IS interesting … I didn’t expect that pitch detune thing it does. 

Thanks for the input!

Regarding the GR300 thing, I haven’t tried it yet, but I’m going to run a Hotsawz preset (I’ll start with factory preset Faux Horns) into the Synthonizer GR300 preset I posted above.  I’ll try something like a 50/50 mix.  I’m thinking double the processing power will create a more convincing simulation of that GR300 sound.  But lord only knows what trap for the unwary awaits me. We’ll see.

 

[brock]

apalazzolo wrote:

To all: On a related note, does Hotsawz do everything better than Synthonizer (which I didn’t find to be useful at all).  I think the answer is, yes.  Have I overlooked anything?

I’ve managed to get a decent wah (w/expression pedal), a poor man’s Digitech Freqout, a Telstar … stuff like that.  I kind of left it behind after HotSawz.  Better tracking; so much control packed into ‘ten’ parameters.

It’s a lot more forgiving on dyads & chords, too.  It almost seems like low note priority on a hardware mono synth (but it may be that the loudest note wins).  You’ve planted an earworm with that GR300 request.  Has me revisiting HotSawz to see if (and how) it can be done.

 

[apalazzolo]

brock wrote:

apalazzolo wrote:

To all: On a related note, does Hotsawz do everything better than Synthonizer (which I didn’t find to be useful at all).  I think the answer is, yes.  Have I overlooked anything?

I’ve managed to get a decent wah (w/expression pedal), a poor man’s Digitech Freqout, a Telstar … stuff like that.  I kind of left it behind after HotSawz.  Better tracking; so much control packed into ‘ten’ parameters.

It’s a lot more forgiving on dyads & chords, too.  It almost seems like low note priority on a hardware mono synth (but it may be that the loudest note wins).  You’ve planted an earworm with that GR300 request.  Has me revisiting HotSawz to see if (and how) it can be done.

 

[apalazzolo]

Oops … GR300 PAT METHENY attached.

 

[brock]

apalazzolo wrote:

…I forgot to mention that I did go through your Hotsawz list.  Although there is a lot of cool stuff there but I didn’t find anything close to a GR300 …

No, I don’t think I went for any classic emulations in that one.  I did stumble upon some ‘HotSawz Stragglers’ when looking up the presets below, though.  Brass, SCI Six-Trak; lots of random stuff that apparently didn’t make the cut, or came in late.

apalazzolo wrote:

…On Synthonizer, I put together a POORMANS FREQOUT based on a preset you made and mentioned above.  That was a clever use of Synthonizer.  I am attaching my best effort.  I also posted mine on The Gear Page while giving you attribution.  Please let me know if mine is anywhere near yours.  Thanks.

We were on the same page.  I think yours is closer to the spirit of a feedback simulation.  You took the approach of blending both sides of the dual effect as layered components.  Tastefully done.  It seems like you were using the EXP PED to fade in the feedback as needed.

There are a few places where I took a different approach.  I split the two sides up, so that I could easily switch (MIDI CC) between a “feedbacker” [A10+B0], and a more aggressive filter sweep [A0+B10].  Actually, my A side is closer to a mono synth doubletrack, with some portamento.

I’m using manual choking to control this effect.  I slathered it all in reverb, to smooth out tails & glitches, with the EXP PED pushing that to dry at the Toe.  An alternate preset here targets the VERB DECAY, for bending-time-&-space FX.  This is one quirky little reverb.  Weird bends & resets when switching patches, or tweaking.  

Either way, I dropped the main MIX down, so reverb wasn’t so overpowering.  I use the FLEX switching a lot (up an octave here), so that explains why my WAVE MIX A is ranged much lower.  Best of both worlds with octave switching.  On the B side, I like having all those SAWTOOTH harmonics to carve up; relying on the filter.

I have to say, the tracking wasn’t nearly as bad as I was remembering to be.  Or maybe my technique has gotten better.  This preset is at least 8 years old; off my PitchFactor.  Pre-H9s.

[Bodde]

apalazzolo wrote:

Regarding the GR300 thing, I haven’t tried it yet, but I’m going to run a Hotsawz preset (I’ll start with factory preset Faux Horns) into the Synthonizer GR300 preset I posted above.  I’ll try something like a 50/50 mix.  I’m thinking double the processing power will create a more convincing simulation of that GR300 sound.  But lord only knows what trap for the unwary awaits me. We’ll see.

 

Faux Horns doesn’t sound anything like the GR-300 I think. Just tried a GR-300 Hotsawz preset. It is very hard to get the exact sound from both Hotsawz and Synthonizer but it’s in the ballpark.

Thanks for bringing this topic up. It made me dive in the two synth algos again. Hadn’t done that for a long while. They both are nice but the tracking is not super great on both. Especially if you go from one string to the next or with string skips you have to be very careful. You get glitches very easily.

Let me know what you think of the GR-300 preset. You can adjust to taste of course….

[apalazzolo]

Bodde wrote:

apalazzolo wrote:

Regarding the GR300 thing, I haven’t tried it yet, but I’m going to run a Hotsawz preset (I’ll start with factory preset Faux Horns) into the Synthonizer GR300 preset I posted above.  I’ll try something like a 50/50 mix.  I’m thinking double the processing power will create a more convincing simulation of that GR300 sound.  But lord only knows what trap for the unwary awaits me. We’ll see.

 

Faux Horns doesn’t sound anything like the GR-300 I think. Just tried a GR-300 Hotsawz preset. It is very hard to get the exact sound from both Hotsawz and Synthonizer but it’s in the ballpark.

Thanks for bringing this topic up. It made me dive in the two synth algos again. Hadn’t done that for a long while. They both are nice but the tracking is not super great on both. Especially if you go from one string to the next or with string skips you have to be very careful. You get glitches very easily.

Let me know what you think of the GR-300 preset. You can adjust to taste of course….

Hey, thanks.  I think you are right that your preset is about as close as Hotsawz alone can come to a GR300.  One possible minor variant (improvement?) is to raise the OSC DEPTH to to about 47 or 53 to add some thickness … something like a detuned doubling.    But I’m hearing a distinct upper octave voice in Metheny’s GR300 sounds that I don’t hear in Hotsawz.  For that reason, I thought running a Hotsawz preset like yours (lower octave) in a Synthonizer preset like factory preset Trombone Factor (upper octave) might possibly be a winning combination.  Just an untested thought at the moment.

[Bodde]

apalazzolo wrote:

Bodde wrote:

apalazzolo wrote:

Regarding the GR300 thing, I haven’t tried it yet, but I’m going to run a Hotsawz preset (I’ll start with factory preset Faux Horns) into the Synthonizer GR300 preset I posted above.  I’ll try something like a 50/50 mix.  I’m thinking double the processing power will create a more convincing simulation of that GR300 sound.  But lord only knows what trap for the unwary awaits me. We’ll see.

 

Faux Horns doesn’t sound anything like the GR-300 I think. Just tried a GR-300 Hotsawz preset. It is very hard to get the exact sound from both Hotsawz and Synthonizer but it’s in the ballpark.

Thanks for bringing this topic up. It made me dive in the two synth algos again. Hadn’t done that for a long while. They both are nice but the tracking is not super great on both. Especially if you go from one string to the next or with string skips you have to be very careful. You get glitches very easily.

Let me know what you think of the GR-300 preset. You can adjust to taste of course….

Hey, thanks.  I think you are right that your preset is about as close as Hotsawz alone can come to a GR300.  One possible minor variant (improvement?) is to raise the OSC DEPTH to to about 47 or 53 to add some thickness … something like a detuned doubling.    But I’m hearing a distinct upper octave voice in Metheny’s GR300 sounds that I don’t hear in Hotsawz.  For that reason, I thought running a Hotsawz preset like yours (lower octave) in a Synthonizer preset like factory preset Trombone Factor (upper octave) might possibly be a winning combination.  Just an untested thought at the moment.

I think running Hotsawz into Synthonizer is not a good idea. You can try of course but it probably will result in too much glitches. The tracking of both algos can be improved in my opinion.

Also I think instead of trying to copy the GR300 sound for 100% it is better to enjoy the algos for what they are. They have some great sounds on their own. But on the other hand it is good to try to nail the Metheny sound because on the way you discover some nice other sounds and you get to know the algo better.

[apalazzolo]

Bodde wrote:

apalazzolo wrote:

Bodde wrote:

apalazzolo wrote:

Regarding the GR300 thing, I haven’t tried it yet, but I’m going to run a Hotsawz preset (I’ll start with factory preset Faux Horns) into the Synthonizer GR300 preset I posted above.  I’ll try something like a 50/50 mix.  I’m thinking double the processing power will create a more convincing simulation of that GR300 sound.  But lord only knows what trap for the unwary awaits me. We’ll see.

 

Faux Horns doesn’t sound anything like the GR-300 I think. Just tried a GR-300 Hotsawz preset. It is very hard to get the exact sound from both Hotsawz and Synthonizer but it’s in the ballpark.

Thanks for bringing this topic up. It made me dive in the two synth algos again. Hadn’t done that for a long while. They both are nice but the tracking is not super great on both. Especially if you go from one string to the next or with string skips you have to be very careful. You get glitches very easily.

Let me know what you think of the GR-300 preset. You can adjust to taste of course….

Hey, thanks.  I think you are right that your preset is about as close as Hotsawz alone can come to a GR300.  One possible minor variant (improvement?) is to raise the OSC DEPTH to to about 47 or 53 to add some thickness … something like a detuned doubling.    But I’m hearing a distinct upper octave voice in Metheny’s GR300 sounds that I don’t hear in Hotsawz.  For that reason, I thought running a Hotsawz preset like yours (lower octave) in a Synthonizer preset like factory preset Trombone Factor (upper octave) might possibly be a winning combination.  Just an untested thought at the moment.

…. I think instead of trying to copy the GR300 sound for 100% it is better to enjoy the algos for what they are. They have some great sounds on their own. But on the other hand it is good to try to nail the Metheny sound because on the way you discover some nice other sounds and you get to know the algo better.

Well said.

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