H8000FW in a live guitar rig

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    • #106047
      Topas
      Member

      Hello, I am thinking of building a guitar rig centered around the H8000FW as an effect processor. However, as this is my first entry into rack rigs, I have a few questions I would like to have answered, before shelling a substantial amount for the unit. Thanks for understanding 🙂

      1) The H8000FW would be used as both pre-preamp effect unit (compressor, wah, chorus, flanger) and post-preamp effect unit (delay, reverb, boost). For it, I plan the signal path as Guitar -> H8000 input 1 -> H8000 output 1 (mono) -> mono preamp -> H8000 input 3 -> H8000 output 3 & 4 (stereo) -> stereo poweramp -> two amp cabs. Is it Ok? The strengths of the signals on both inputs will be very different. The H8000 would be in an Analog Dual Stereo Mode (manual, page 29). Would the monolithic programs be Ok with this?

      2) The H8000 has a "virtual rack" mode. Since I am a newbie, is it possible before the song begins to select a patch that contains for example compressor, chorus, delay , reverb (all on), then in the course of the song turn those off/on at various points (let's say turn off three of them with one click at the foot controller), with the change being intant (or very very fast)?

      3) Is there an algorithm in H8000 that can be used as wah? (with an expression pedals suplying the 0-127 value)

      The last question is whether you, experienced users, think this is a good and sensible way to build a guitar rig or whether I should look for more affordable options (i.e. Axe Fx. Not Eclipse, it has two effects maximum at given time and does not allow pre-preamp and post-preamp cascade of effects). Thank you for your time.

    • #118239
      IDeangelis
      Member

       Hi

      welcome to the Eventide forums!

      there are different approaches you should consider:

      -chorus and flanger sound best after a preamp

      -boost is generally used before a preamp to get a different kind of "crunch", particularly with tube preamps.

      In theory you could use one DSP pre_preamp and the other post_preamp, but it would be very likely a waste of resources. I would use a simple analog wah after your guitar and let the 2 DSPs take care of fx that will sound better after a line level signal. In addition to this, you'd need to create your own pre_preamp presets, learning our Vsigfile algorithm editor for PC.

      Another problem may be loading a monolithic preset, as this runs on a single DSP A, making B disappear from the routing. Not a good way to go.

      Virtual Rack is not a "mode", it's a collection of presets containing 4 or 5 hi_quality stereo machines (pretty much like a full rack). A MIDI Virtual Rack can store up to 10 different tweaks in it, including the on/off status of each fx AND the values of all parameters labeled with an asterisk (*). A single MIDI CC is patched to the TWEAK knob…so if your MIDI pedalboard can send a midi CC message w/a specific numeric value like 1 to 10, then you'll be able to recall any of the internal tweaks without changing preset. That' not even fast..it's NOW…INSTANT!

      There is a wah wah….but honestly, dedicating a 2500$ sinbgle dsp to that is (IMHO) a waste. You can get much more than that.

      Here's how:

      if you intend to professionally manage your rack with a mixer, you could have the 2 DSPs set for mono in (that's what a guitar preamp sends out anyway) and stereo out, in parallel. So, you could load two different presets at the same time or at different times…and switch between them via MIDI CC messages, just changing levels. This will give you instant preset change. Imaging having two different MIDI Virtual Racks loaded, w/different sets of FX. What else would you need in term of fx?

      Please take a look at the presets manual. In the last pages there's a detailed description of how the MIDI Virtual Racks work.

      FYI, Eclipse has 2 FX blocks..BUT can run up to 5 fx at the same time, depending on the 2 choosen algorithms stored in a preset.

      "Good and sensible way" ?

      It's just THE best way!

      cheers

      I

    • #118240
      Topas
      Member

      Hello Italo,

       I must say I am suprised at the speed and depth of the answers here in the forum. Great job! Do you care to go through your answer and debate a few things?

      -chorus and flanger sound best after a preamp

      No debate, this is right.

      -boost is generally used before a preamp to get a different kind of "crunch", particularly with tube preamps.

      Yes, this is a very valid use. However, if you have two channel preamp and you want to boost the volume for a guitar lead, you must use boost after preamp (given you use the dirty channel), or you just change the tone, not the volume.

      In theory you could use one DSP pre_preamp and the other post_preamp, but it would be very likely a waste of resources. I would use a simple analog wah after your guitar and let the 2 DSPs take care of fx that will sound better after a line level signal. In addition to this, you'd need to create your own pre_preamp presets, learning our Vsigfile algorithm editor for PC.

      If this could be so easy… in our more complex songs, there are moments when you have to turn off the wah, change channel on the amp, turn off chorus and reverb etc etc etc, preferrably with just single click to the wah (or parking it to 0 position). I have analog pedalboard whose sound I am happy with, but the complexity of the switching is forcing me to move to rack solution. Anyway, even with the wah out of way, there is the compressor, which would be better to have pre-preamp.

      I am not afraid of the Vsigfile, just it would be good to know if it's even possible.

      Show More...

      Another problem may be loading a monolithic preset, as this runs on a single DSP A, making B disappear from the routing. Not a good way to go.

      Since most of the more intensive algorithms would be used post-preamp, would it be better to use DSP A post-preamp and DPS B pre-preamp? Would the signal travel through the DSP B unaffected, if the DSP A would run a monolithic preset?

      Virtual Rack is not a "mode", it's a collection of presets containing 4 or 5 hi_quality stereo machines (pretty much like a full rack). A MIDI Virtual Rack can store up to 10 different tweaks in it, including the on/off status of each fx AND the values of all parameters labeled with an asterisk (*). A single MIDI CC is patched to the TWEAK knob…so if your MIDI pedalboard can send a midi CC message w/a specific numeric value like 1 to 10, then you'll be able to recall any of the internal tweaks without changing preset. That' not even fast..it's NOW…INSTANT!

      I have looked at the virtual rack and it looks pretty well. Just what I need 🙂

      There is a wah wah….but honestly, dedicating a 2500$ sinbgle dsp to that is (IMHO) a waste. You can get much more than that.

      Yes, it is pretty over the board 🙂 However, the compressor is before preamp too and I would like to have a few filters there as well (let's say acoustic guitar simulator etc).

      "Good and sensible way" ? It's just THE best way!

      cheers

      I

      Yeah, I know it can't get really better than that 🙂

      Sincerely Topas

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    • #129342
      IDeangelis
      Member

      Here we go....

      -boost is generally used before a preamp to get a different kind of "crunch", particularly with tube preamps.

      Yes, this is a very valid use. However, if you have two channel
      preamp and you want to boost the volume for a guitar lead, you must use
      boost after preamp (given you use the dirty channel), or you just
      change the tone, not the volume.

      Problem is that by boosting overall levels in a digital device you may "hit the rail"!

      In
      addition to this, maybe your dry sound won't go thru the Eventide, if
      you use splitters/mixers/routers to manage the audio in the
      rack…..Not the ideal way to go.

      The H8000FW has a max input boost of +30dB and the output can be boosted by about 3dB as a post D/A converters gain.

      In theory you could use one DSP pre_preamp and the other
      post_preamp, but it would be very likely a waste of resources. I would
      Show More...

      use a simple analog wah after your guitar and let the 2 DSPs take care
      of fx that will sound better after a line level signal. In addition to
      this, you'd need to create your own pre_preamp presets, learning our
      Vsigfile algorithm editor for PC.

      If this could be so easy… in our more complex songs, there are
      moments when you have to turn off the wah, change channel on the amp,
      turn off chorus and reverb etc etc etc, preferrably with just single
      click to the wah (or parking it to 0 position). I have analog
      pedalboard whose sound I am happy with, but the complexity of the
      switching is forcing me to move to rack solution. Anyway, even with the
      wah out of way, there is the compressor, which would be better to have
      pre-preamp.

      You can MIDI_UP channel switching, presets
      changing and H8000 FX on/off switching at the press of a single
      button….you could even add analog wah and analog pre_preamp switching
      with a MIDI looper. One switch…everything goes where you want.

      Compressors
      before and/or after preamp. Some people use both, one at the time,
      others have a specific preference. Is yours a preference or…..?

      I am not afraid of the Vsigfile, just it would be good to know if it's even possible.

      Yes, it's possible.

      Another problem may be loading a monolithic preset, as this runs
      on a single DSP A, making B disappear from the routing. Not a good way
      to go.

      Since most of the more intensive algorithms would be used
      post-preamp, would it be better to use DSP A post-preamp and DPS B
      pre-preamp? Would the signal travel through the DSP B unaffected, if
      the DSP A would run a monolithic preset?

      A monolithic
      preset will temporarily "erase" DSP B. It goes away. It will only run a
      super monolithic DSP A to use such a big preset. You should not use
      monolithic presets. I don't see the reason why you would use them
      anyway. They are mostly huge surround or multichannel stuff.

      There is a wah wah….but honestly, dedicating a 2500$ sinbgle dsp to that is (IMHO) a waste. You can get much more than that.

      Yes, it is pretty over the board 🙂 However, the compressor is
      before preamp too and I would like to have a few filters there as well
      (let's say acoustic guitar simulator etc).

      You'll have to build these things in your presets…Vsig is the tool.

      In all, you can do what you describe, taken the time to work on it a bit.

      cheers

      I

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    • #118271
      teddy
      Member

      Hi Ideangelis,

      Please, Can you give me the name of a pedalboard compatible that can control the virtual rack preset of the h8000fw ?
      I want to do the same thing like a guitar multi effect.

    • #129360
      IDeangelis
      Member

       Hi Teddy

      since I do not use MIDI pedalboards as they are all too limited for my needs, I have no specific model to advice. You need to look for any model that allows 10 of its footswitches to send out the same MIDI Continuous Controller #, each one with a different value.

      Simply this, if the choice is CC #1:

      Fsw #1 sends MIDI CC # 1 with value 1 > recalls Tweak 1

      Fsw #2 sends MIDI CC # 1 with value 2 > recalls Tweak 2 

      Fsw #3 sends MIDI CC # 1 with value 3 > recalls Tweak 3 

      Fsw #4 sends MIDI CC # 1 with value 4 > recalls Tweak 4 

      Fsw #5 sends MIDI CC # 1 with value 5 > recalls Tweak 5 

      Fsw #6 sends MIDI CC # 1 with value 6 > recalls Tweak 6 

      Fsw #7 sends MIDI CC # 1 with value 7 > recalls Tweak 7 

      Fsw #8 sends MIDI CC # 1 with value 8 > recalls Tweak 8 

      Fsw #9 sends MIDI CC # 1 with value 9 > recalls Tweak 9 

      Fsw #10 sends MIDI CC # 1 with value 10 > recalls Tweak 10 

      I'm sure there are pedalboards out there that can do this; very likely they belong to mid_high or high range products, though, but still worth as they will allow greater flexibility and growth in the MIDI area in your future.

      Hopefully other folks using MIDI pedalboards can add specific suggestions on the topic.

      You may want to start checking companies websites to check their models' user manuals for the right info on this.

      all the best

      I

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