H9000 and Instrument Level

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  • This topic has 8 replies, 2 voices, and was last updated 10 months ago by AdamIEcho.
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    • #116586
      sharbono
      Member

      I’m wondering about scooping an H9000 and using it in my guitar rack. Are any of you using an H9000 with Bradshaw/CAE or RJM interfaces that only send and receive at instrument level? If so, how are you dealing with the instrument level/line level mismatch?

      Any tips?

      Thanks in advance!

    • #158272
      joecozzi
      Moderator
      Eventide Staff

      I run an H9000 in a stereo guitar rig featuring two Mesa/Boogie stacks. I use an RJM Effects Gizmo to control the signal flow via MIDI. I run one H9K FX Chain to the front of the amps for gain-based effects and a 2nd FX Chain to the effects loops of both amps. That gives me four algorithms in front and four in the effects loops, which is plenty for me. The H9K gives us the ability to switch between -10 and +4 dB operation and I/O pairs, so you don’t have to worry about that with an external device. I use a DB25 TRS snake from the H9K to the RJM to make my connections. I do use some Radial Boxes to make sure I’m able to isolate one side of the rig from the other in case I run into grounding and phasing issues on the amp inputs and effects loops connections. Also, it keeps the rig very quiet. I connect my guitar to the H9K via a small preamp whose output goes to XLR input 1 on the H9K as a balanced signal. Once inside the H9K, I split that signal for stereo operation. This just allows me to adjust the input level to feed the PRE Fx Chain perfectly. The rig is controlled by an RJM MasterMind GT/16.

    • #158339
      J20056
      Participant

      Very similar approach for me but instead I am using a SwitchBlade GL as an external interface. I can confirm everything eloquently said above.

    • #161359
      homer
      Participant

      Hi Joe,

      resurrecting this thread and hoping for a response.
      Based on your post I tried to recreate your setup with my amp. Problem is of course how to deal with the DI in the 9K as the analog section is not its forte. You mention a little preamp being used to create a balanced signal. Could you share what brand/type you are using?

      Cheers

      John

    • #161864
      AdamIEcho
      Participant

      Hi everyone.

      There is a saying, “From one thing, learn 10,000 things”.
      -By observing General Principles, you will be able to parse out solutions across multiple strata.

      Things to consider:

      • The greater the voltage hitting the DSP, the more material it has to sculpt and effect.
        -Think of it like a gate that opens once the signal level exceeds a certain amount, allowing greater detail to bloom the further you push it (short of distortion of course.)
      • In order to provide enough voltage at the input, it is good practice to pre-amplify the signal up to Line-Level with a quality device.
      • The Orville/H8000 family that preceded the H9000 had an analog preamp section capable of providing up to +30dBu of boost.
        -Since this hardware is not provided in the H9000, it is advisable to use an external mixer to experience the full detail of what it’s processors have to offer.
      • Running racks at instrument level allows them to perform like glorified guitar pedals.
        -Running them at line-level allows them to perform like the professional studio tools they are designed to be.

      About the Switchblade GL:

      I used to run (3) of these in my studio, but had to lower the outputs of my racks significantly to avoid over-driving it.
      -As it turns out, the GL clips beyond +6dBu, only 2dBu beyond nominal professional output.

      The “Studio Switchblade” (long out of production), clipped beyond +19dBu-
      -A unit <span style=”text-decoration: underline;”>much</span> more fitting for these applications.

      I never got an official answer from Ken, but it is my suspicion that, “GL” stands for ,”Guitar Level”.
      This would stand to reason, as the machine performs just fine when running it as a pedal/instrument level router.

      -A single Eventide rack running it’s full open glory however, will cause the GL to melt-down instantly without mercy. –

      You can do what you like, but if you want to hear the H9000 optimally and on a budget, try the following:

      1. Get a Tascam LM-8ST Stereo Line mixer (max input = +24dBu)
      2. Boost your guitar to line-level using that, and use the Balanced Aux Output to feed the H9000’s inputs
        -Make sure the H9000 is set to accept +4dBu Nominal, NOT, “-10”
      3. Return the outputs of the H9000 (unattenuated) to however many channels you need on the LM-8ST.
      4. Set your blend and run the LM-8ST’s Balanced XLR Stereo Outputs to your monitors and have a listen.

      If you’d like to run it into an amp, or run the 1/4″ secondary outs, and make sure to be careful with level there-
      -Turn it up slow…

      Come back and share your experience with us.

      Beyond that-

      If your studio requires a router, check the specs before you wind up with something that serves as a crippling bottleneck for your audio.
      I was there… I know.

      I sold all 3 Switchblades, and wound up working with a product that never made it to market called X-Bay 64.
      -It can handle up to +30dBu, so there is no headroom issue whatsoever, as anything downstream in my studio can only handle a maximum of +24dBu.

      Some options on the secondhand market are as follows:

      1. CM-Labs Sixty Four (Maximum Input = +29.9 dBu)
      2. 360 Systems AM-16/B (Maximum Input = +27dBu)
      3. Soundsculpture <span style=”text-decoration: underline;”>Studio</span> Switchblade (Maximum Input = +19dBu)

      There is also the Flock Audio, “Patch” product line, but the availability of Phantom Power on all channels concerns me in case of an OS fault.
      They are also not as transparent as others with specifications.

      I have been working with Eventides for years, and am currently testing the H9000 heavily.
      You can see my studio here: AdamIEchoStudio.com

      I hope you can use this information, and it leads to huge revelations for you personally and as an artist.

      Stay well.

      -Adam.

    • #161865
      AdamIEcho
      Participant

      Hi everyone.

      There is a saying, “From one thing, learn 10,000 things”.
      -By observing General Principles, you will be able to parse out solutions across multiple strata.

      Things to consider:

      The greater the voltage hitting the DSP, the more material it has to sculpt and effect.
      -Think of it like a gate that opens once the signal level exceeds a certain amount, allowing greater detail to bloom the further you push it (short of distortion of course.)
      In order to provide enough voltage at the input, it is good practice to pre-amplify the signal up to Line-Level with a quality device.
      The Orville/H8000 family that preceded the H9000 had an analog preamp section capable of providing up to +30dBu of boost.
      -Since this hardware is not provided in the H9000, it is advisable to use an external mixer to experience the full detail of what it’s processors have to offer.
      Running racks at instrument level allows them to perform like glorified guitar pedals.
      -Running them at line-level allows them to perform like the professional studio tools they are designed to be.
      About the Switchblade GL:

      I used to run (3) of these in my studio, but had to lower the outputs of my racks significantly to avoid over-driving it.
      -As it turns out, the GL clips beyond +6dBu, only 2dBu beyond nominal professional output.

      The “Studio Switchblade” (long out of production), clipped beyond +19dBu-
      -A unit much more fitting for these applications.

      I never got an official answer from Ken, but it is my suspicion that, “GL” stands for ,”Guitar Level”.
      This would stand to reason, as the machine performs just fine when running it as a pedal/instrument level router.

      Show More...

      -A single Eventide rack running it’s full open glory however, will cause the GL to melt-down instantly without mercy. –

      You can do what you like, but if you want to hear the H9000 optimally and on a budget, try the following:

      1. Get a Tascam LM-8ST Stereo Line mixer (max input = +24dBu)
      2. Boost your guitar to line-level using that, and use the Balanced Aux Output to feed the H9000’s inputs
        -Make sure the H9000 is set to accept +4dBu Nominal, NOT, “-10”
      3. Return the outputs of the H9000 (unattenuated) to however many channels you need on the LM-8ST.
      4. Set your blend and run the LM-8ST’s Balanced XLR Stereo Outputs to your monitors and have a listen.

      If you’d like to run it into an amp, or run the 1/4″ secondary outs, and make sure to be careful with level there-
      -Turn it up slow…

      Come back and share your experience with us.

      Beyond that-

      If your studio requires a router, check the specs before you wind up with something that serves as a crippling bottleneck for your audio.
      I was there… I know.

      I sold all 3 Switchblades, and wound up working with a product that never made it to market called X-Bay 64.
      -It can handle up to +30dBu, so there is no headroom issue whatsoever, as anything downstream in my studio can only handle a maximum of +24dBu.

      Some options on the secondhand market are as follows:

      1. CM-Labs Sixty Four (Maximum Input = +29.9 dBu)
      2. 360 Systems AM-16/B (Maximum Input = +27dBu)
      3. Soundsculpture Studio Switchblade (Maximum Input = +19dBu)

      There is also the Flock Audio, “Patch” product line, but the availability of Phantom Power on all channels concerns me in case of an OS fault.
      They are also not as transparent as others with specifications.

      I have been working with Eventides for years, and am currently testing the H9000 heavily.
      You can see my studio here: AdamIEchoStudio.com

      I hope you can use this information, and it leads to huge revelations for you personally and as an artist.

      Stay well.

      -Adam.

      Show Less...
    • #158274
      sharbono
      Member
      joecozzi wrote:
      The H9K gives us the ability to switch between -10 and +4 dB operation and I/O pairs, so you don’t have to worry about that with an external device. I use a DB25 TRS snake from the H9K to the RJM to make my connections. I do use some Radial Boxes to make sure I’m able to isolate one side of the rig from the other in case I run into grounding and phasing issues on the amp inputs and effects loops connections. Also, it keeps the rig very quiet . . . This just allows me to adjust the input level to feed the PRE Fx Chain perfectly. The rig is controlled by an RJM MasterMind GT/16.

      Thank you for taking the time to respond, that was really helpful. Your rig sounds really cool!

      Once I get the H9000 and get in the menu, will I just set everything to -4 and be off and running?

      I’d like to use one FX chain very early on for pitch based effects. I’ll be using a Bradshaw/CAE loop system. My only concern was that I’d engage the loop with H9000 FX chain 1 (Pitch Effects) and then hit a drive pedal and I’d be hitting it with too much signal. Does that make sense? If not, I can draw it out.

      Thanks again!

    • #158276
      Given To Fly
      Participant
      joecozzi wrote:
      I run an H9000 in a stereo guitar rig featuring two Mesa/Boogie stacks. I use an RJM Effects Gizmo to control the signal flow via MIDI. I run one H9K FX Chain to the front of the amps for gain-based effects and a 2nd FX Chain to the effects loops of both amps. That gives me four algorithms in front and four in the effects loops, which is plenty for me. The H9K gives us the ability to switch between -10 and +4 dB operation and I/O pairs, so you don’t have to worry about that with an external device. I use a DB25 TRS snake from the H9K to the RJM to make my connections. I do use some Radial Boxes to make sure I’m able to isolate one side of the rig from the other in case I run into grounding and phasing issues on the amp inputs and effects loops connections. Also, it keeps the rig very quiet. I connect my guitar to the H9K via a small preamp whose output goes to XLR input 1 on the H9K as a balanced signal. Once inside the H9K, I split that signal for stereo operation. This just allows me to adjust the input level to feed the PRE Fx Chain perfectly. The rig is controlled by an RJM MasterMind GT/16.

      That is a pretty awesome setup!  

    • #158275
      joecozzi
      Moderator
      Eventide Staff
      sharbono wrote:
      Once I get the H9000 and get in the menu, will I just set everything to -4 and be off and running?

      Perhaps you meant -10? If you’re talking about the signal in front of the amp, yes, -10 will be the better option. If you’re also incorporating the effects loop of your amp in the rig, you may want to experiment running that loop at +4, as most amp efx loops run at line level, but it’s okay to try both and see what preserves your tone as you change the level of the Guitar preamp.

      sharbono wrote:
      I’d like to use one FX chain very early on for pitch based effects. I’ll be using a Bradshaw/CAE loop system. My only concern was that I’d engage the loop with H9000 FX chain 1 (Pitch Effects) and then hit a drive pedal and I’d be hitting it with too much signal. Does that make sense? If not, I can draw it out.

      Yeah, it makes sense. That’s why I’d set the level coming out of FX Chain 1 to -10dBv if you’ll be directing that signal to other pedals. You’ll also have to experiment with the input setting on your drive pedal as well. But don’t forget the H9000 FX Chain’s output and algorithm levels can be adjusted, so I’m certain you’ll be able to find a good balance.

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