lead poem question

[jbounias]

Hello its john from greece

my 7600 is awesome but due to some phd exams i hadnt any time to experiment much with my rig. Any way i got both the legendary bogner fish and the cae 3+ preamps and a vht 2150 .

All mixed through sound sculpture. I also use as you have adviced me a cae compressor pedal exactly after my guitar before it gets into mixing chain so its in both in the dry and wet signals.

Now i have been hearing for a very long time when playing with the overdive chanell a phaser like sound inside the overall sound. i tried the preamps dry and also the 7600 bypass and this phasing sound dissappeared from the overdive.

Then i experimented with the input levels (did nothing) and afterwards with the gaintrim levels wich worked perfectly but i lost the delay in the particular preset.

(clean sound in this preset works perfect)

Could you tell me why do i have this kind of phased sound? is it because of the particular preset (which i find very very handy due to the ability to have guitar alike fx modules for every situation easy on of and basic parameters). Can you also suggest me some other similar and usefull modules. But please tell me how can a get rid of this annoying phasing sound and whether i will confront it in every other preset.

Thank you very much for your time , and the first moment i get to have any time and carry my rig to my own premises (its in  a friend's studio) i will get to proper register it and expriment much more

[IDeangelis]

Hi John

the Virtual Racks/MIDI Virtual Racks presets have all dry sound in them. If you read the INFO menupage of Lead Tone Poem preset, it says to set dry/wet on 100% wet. Very likely you have your H7600 signal managed in parallel to your preamp dry signal…so 2 instances of the same signal, analog dry + digital dry (7600), are causing the phasing issue. To use these presets you need to remove the analog dry signal and let the H7600 provide both of them, keeping its FX balance on 100% wet.

all the best

I

[jbounias]

thank you very much .

i think you mean remove the digital dry from 7600 and and not the analog drive from my preamp.

so it will be 100 digital wet (7600) mixed with my dry preamp before the power amp

if i understanded you correctly

[jbounias]

thank you very much

i think though that you were meaning to kill the dry signal from the 7600 and play 100% wet digital.

then i will have 100% wet digital eventide signal mixed with my analog preamp signal before the power amp.

Am i correct?

[IDeangelis]

Incorrect. You should do exactly what I said:

-set the unit to 100%wet

-remove the parallel analog signal from your preamp

this is so because the Virtual Racks/MIDI Virtual Racks Bank presets have the DRY sound internally, going straignt from I to O. This is NOT managed by the system dry/wet balance.

When we created these presets the decision to keep the dry within the algorithm was owed to 2 good resons:

-presets that have a wah/wah or/and filter/eq or/and tremolo or/and compressor should be always have the dry sound in series, because that's what is processed by such typically in_series fx.

-the Eventide DSP/H series has such a terrific sounding conversion and input headroom that there is practically no audible difference between a digital dry sound and the original analog one.

best

I

[jbounias]

despite my phd's and my civil engineering career and my musical studies and virtuosity i guess i am quite zero when it comes to sound engineering …. its maybe because i was too busy playing and that i had never invested in gear.

Any way a big thanks again for giving me a revelation and pointing me to the obvious. iI you can bear with my ignorance i would like to pose you some final questions related with this issue.

1. lets say that i want to mix left and right outputs of 7600 through sound blade and direct them to a clean head (ie. bad cat bc 50) then will i get a phasing sound ? (assuming i feed the 7600 with overdriven signal exactly as you directed me)

2.Should i follow your instructions for every module of the 7600 or only for those that need to be played 100% wet?

3.Does this apply for the clean sounds or i could use the parallel analog dry signal there?

4.I figured out two alternate signal routings for overdriven sounds:

4.1 gtr-preamp -wet7600-poweramp1-speakers1                                                                                    –                 dry-poweramp2(or head)-speakers2

4.2 feed the 7600 with clean gtr signal (before the preamp) and then mix it via the switchblade with my overdriven dry signal.

will they work?

i am starting to realize that i should not use my switchblade for mixing cause its impractical for the overdriven sounds so my second guess is that you use it for routing and alternating your signal path in order to use various sound sources. So dry wet rigs must be consisted of two different amp and speaker sections dedicated to each signal. As expensive and huge that might be i thing i can manage it with my 4.1 set up i described you (if it is approved by you ofcourse)

i realy appreciate your help

john

[IDeangelis]

John

there seems to be some confusion here.

First off, the problem of "phased" sound (comb filtering is what happens) is *not* owed to overdriven/distorted sound. It's simply a matter of mixing any two instances of the same sound. They overlap and tend to cancel common frequencies, somehow. If one of the instances is then a digital one, it has some inherent delay owed to A/D + D/A conversion and other delay added by FX. This delay changes the way the "phasing" issue is perceived, but it's still there. Sometimes it can also be an interesting FX.

(on this subject, I find VERY, VERY interesting to use MICRODELAY, with settings lower than 1 millisecond, to get very special EQ on distorted sounds. The canceling of common frequencies of the 2 overlapping frequencies can be managed by very short time delay to fine tune a "dominant" sonic character in the gtr tone. It's a very refined tecnique….but this is another story).

Secondly, the H7600 manages dry/wet balance at system level, as you already know. BUT…being a totally open platform, an algorithm/preset can be designed to have a dry path in it (and even a level control for it). Obviously any signal path in the algorithm should be considered as part of the "wet" portion only of the system output. So if a dry sound is present in an algorithm, the unit should be used in full wet balance to avoid phase canceling. This is true of a very, very small number of presets and is always understandable from the presets' INFO menupage.

Your questions:

1- you won't get any phasing issue as long as you don't use dry sound from your preamp + dry sound inherent to a preset, as explained above. When using the Virtual racks presets, the solution is very simple: program the Switchblade to cut off the dry feeds and listen to the H7600 alone, in 100% wet mode. When going back to presets having no dry sound in the algorithm, just enable the preamp feeds again.

2- I don't understand what you mean by "module" in your question. But the phasing issue is not related to a "module" (?). It's caused by the way a preset is designed. You could even modify algorithms with our Vsigfile editor to remove the dry sound.

3- I believe this is explained by my points above.

4- always better feeding the Harmonizer with a line level (+4dB) signal.

The Switchblade is perfect for *ANY* mixing task. It only requires a clean vison of the signal path and the used FX in it.

Not clear to mehow your rig is made and routed…..nor why would you use 4 speakers! Dry signal is mono anyway!

You could simply use 2 with the appropriate mix or a 3 speakers setup, with "always dry" cabinet in the center and the 2 stereo ones for "only wet" on the sides….but it will require you to program the Switchblade accordingly when using these special Virtual Racks presets…or use Vsigfile to remove the dry path from them.

best

I

[jbounias]

dear italo now i know that i have not undestand a thing.

One thing is sure: i have pictured the dry wet signal exactly like you .Wet signal through 7600 and a stereo amp and then the dry analog signal through a head and then a single cabinet.

Now for the last time to bother you :

if you have a dry analog signal and then an fx signal (in parallel) mixed together (irrespectivelly the type of internal fx routing) then the phasing or latency are a sure thing?

i will dismantle my rig sell it and go for vacations instead.

cheers

[IDeangelis]

John

that's good! A clean start is what we need.

If you have a dry sound and an FX in parallel to it, you will get "phasing" ONLY if the FX has a dry sound copy (of the parallel dry one) in it.

I have gone thru so many rigs and equipment in the last 25 years and fond that the easy solution working for me is….simple.

Split the signal from the preamp in two lines

Send one directly to the mixer (the Switchblade in your case) and send it UNTOUCHED to the power amp/speakers. This is what you mom and dad worked so hard for!

Send the other part of the split signal to the FX processor and connect its outputs to the mixer (SwBlade for you)

Mono DRY and stereo WET are now in parallel! Keep the H7600 on 100% wet.

Any time you need a MIDI Virtual Rack preset, just program the Switchblade to MUTE/KILL/KAPUTT the parallel dry from the preamp. The H7600 is SO good you won't hear any difference. This is also true for any preset that has effects that should typically be used IN SERIES, rather than IN PARALLEL, like compression, Eq, wah-wah, tremolo.

So…simply…keep the signals in parallel and mute the dry whenever the FX preset has dry in it and/or has IN SERIES fx.

Now vacations in a beautiful greek island would be much nicer!

ccheers

I

[jbounias]

now i am ok

i am gratefull, to you, and i am in for a couple of beers if you ever come in a beatifull greek island (i know for sure that i will  be in one). ofcourse my second guess would be why on earth did you pragrammed 7600 presets with dry since whoever would ever buy an eventide would surely have mixers and multiple speakers /pre amps/amps worhting thousands of cash. Ok you dont need to answer this silly question its a rhetoric one and would be answered with : some one would like to plug n play only with an eventide and a simple pedal or preamp to a console or to a spontaneous gig or to a clinic or to an exhibition….. ok i agree. (but i guess i would buy your stomp boxes instead which is something that i will favour my amp heads some time in the future).

Now i have question /proposition/ plea  for you in particular but everybody is free to respond. After my dual phd exams i will be dedicated to refining and adjusting my rig, so in terms of the eventide presets i am searching a few particular presets in terms of the fx i want to have in it and in terms of the sound i want to achieve. Its only one or two presets i want and they are all about a decent overdriven fusion sound with a noise gate an eq a delay and whatever you thing necessary. I surely know that its already in my eventide but i am searching for holdsworth's sound. With the bogner fish i am really very close to the tone and i also await a bill delap custom holdsworth guitar (to compare with a steinberger gl i already have).

So i am open to any suggestion collaboration support any one would like to offer, but especially  from you.

The real thing is that i wouldnt care for any overdriven sound in my rig , just a mere holdsworthian straight forward sound would be the only program i would ever use. (it is cleans that i got plenty of)

I have realised by the small amount of time occupied with eventide that it could be done easily.But although in terms of effects the clean sound is already there i thing the overdriven approach should be done with some eventide magic eq and filters too.

I confess that i have built a huge rig round my eventide cause i thought that with a couple of good and expensive sound sources it would be able to manipulate the sound and give me my life long dream sound.Second thing is that i bought 7600 knowing that the guys behind it can really provide solutions to desires and requests. i am aware that eventide is not a machine but its presets.

Be well John

[IDeangelis]

John

the reasons why these presets have dry soun in them:

-you may be very surprised at how many people own (and spend $$$/€€€) great guitars/amps/preamps/FX units and have no clue about/will to use splitters/mixers/routers. It's amazing but it's real. So a dry sound helps.

-the quality of the A/D-D/A conversion is so high that there is no audible difference between analog and digital dry. I have tested many units on this and the Orville/H7600/H8000 are the only FX processors capable of this.

-many virtual racks have compression/eq/Wah/tremolo in them. These FX must be put in series, not in parallel. So a dry sound must go thru the whole algorithm.

-sometimes the complexity of these structures and the order of fx require the presence of dry sound. A chorus after a mod delay needs dry sound to be…a chorus.

We could have added a dry kill function in the presets…problem is that they are so big…over the verge of not running…so some cuts were necessary.

For the "evolved" guitarist it shouldn't be a problem though as a programmable router (such as yours) does the trick…or editing the preset in Vsigfile allows the user to remove the dry path at will.

Holdsworth.

When it comes to Allan's tone, my friend, there's little you can do. I have met the man several times and discussed tone and gear for hours. His distortion tone, besides his heavenly touch, comes from a load box put on an overdriven amp speaker output. HE builds this device and change it very often, experimenting with different capacitors for tonal coloration. The man is a maniac!

The H8000  is not really designed to work in this area, unless you know how to put together an algorithm that tries to accomplish this in some way. Allan's distorted sound has little fx on it, just a bit of delay, that's it. A great work on eq may come close, but you need to use your gear as speakers, cabinets, amps…may sound so different. Any suggestion in settings is simply vain.

The fx on his clean sound are another story. Allan's last chorusing (and settings) are available in the H8000. I believe in the 7600 too. There's a preset called "Allan Chorus". 8 voice chorus done with his "numerology" values and used structure. Won't name the product but it's NOT the same sound he used to get earier with 3 different couples of digital delays.

all the best

I

[jbounias]

Thanks again for all your answers and patience.

I really know this about distirtion sound from allan . He is a very close friend of my teacher (vasilis podaras) but at his visit at athens we provided him with a carvin fet 400 (which i own) and he also used two tc delays and some eq too. He also gave the impression that a lot should be credited to his delap guitar. I am awaiting my delap guitar , and i also know that he used the bogner fish during 92-94. I also know that through modern guitar effects/preamps you only get a phony sound that never cuts through a live band and is very annoying after a few minutes of listening.

So if at any given time you have some time i would definitely appreciate if you could create a program with an eq (at your settings and thoughts of holdsworth's timbre) with the simple delays you said he is mixing into it ( and maybe a compressor and a noise gate in order to play it 100% wet as the lead poem so that i can use eventide noise gate in dry and wet signals). I will do the rest in terms of gear (i am prety close at summoning the stuff he really prefers).

I saw him in greece and believe me if he could carry his real stuff and if he did not care for endorsements he would play with the staff i described you in public (including a bogner and an eventide). He is too pressed but he said ispite of all these he could never do without the delap and that is what he does. the man endorses carvin and steinberger and he is on the cover of his cd with a delap….

So my gear and my playing will definitely save us from the digital copycats and imitations but i strongly believe it would be only accomplished through an eventide preset.

I am binded to provide you with sound samples and give my best to exploit the capabilties of any preset you could provide.

Dear italo i really dont try to immitate holdsworth overdriven sound and i certainly will never touch his musical geniousness but:

1. As americans say there is nothing that cant be accomplished through systematic practice, and there is nothing that can not be decoded and then be teached.

2. there is no guitar gear that could not be bought, it just needs some serious searching informating and help from friends. If something does your job as a tool i dont thing you should hesitate buying it. So i am fed up with hobbyists that really believe they will imitate the sound of legends that carry load tracks of gear with some digital preamp and a combo amp. I wish that allan could showcase his gear like vai did (by introducing us mortals to the world of eventide and multiple amps and preamps and mixers).

3. i can not play fusion whith any other sound that a holdsworth oriended in terms of playabilty, so till today if a cant do this i preffer playing the same stuff with a clean or a crunched sound like wayne krantz's one.

I am here to experiment with your help ofcourse and at your willingness and descreetive competence.

be well john

[IDeangelis]

John

as I said effects proceesors don't make Allan's tone. In addition to this, I work with a very different setup, avoiding guitar gear in general. So anything I's do will sound completely different thru your gtr gear.

You should sit with the unit and try to tweak any parametric equalizer preset and add dome slight delay to it, if you think the Eventide is wghat should give you THAT tone. Personally I won't even try, given the facts I explained about his tone.

Your amp (if it's a good one) could provide holdswortish or krantz (one of my long ago teachers) tones…close to them at least. An eq could help refining things a bit.

best

I

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