Unnecessary AD/DA conversions

[p9699]

This is how it all started; I read a thread somewhere about unnecessary AD/DA conversions. So I thought that I might be a victim of this disease and decided to try recording directly from my H8000FW to my DIGI003 via ADAT. In the past I recorded the analog signals into the DIGI003 system via line level output, but I figured I could eliminate one set of DA/AD conversions if I could record the ADAT output from the H8000FW directly. I suppose my first question is "Is this possible?".

I have tried a number of settings between the H8000FW and the DIGI003 and have not been able to get either unit to lock onto the other's signal. I won't go into anymore detail just yet because the answer to the question above may be "No".

Thanks for any help,
Joe

[J20056]

I hooked up my H7600 to a Tascam DM4800 digital mixer via AES/EBU digital cables. I then send the signal back and forth to my digi 002R via the ADAT light pipe. I use my mixer as the master clock for both my 002R and the H7600, running everything at 48Khz. I do not have any digital clock issues whatsover. On that basis, I assume the firewire might do somehting, but I'm not sure if the 003 can use the firewire as an input mehtod. it's typically used to communicate between the 002/003 and the host computer's CPU. I know for a fact that the firewire in my 002R is totally useless as a signal I/O, not emant for that. Only digital I/O is 8 channels of ADAT and stereo SPDIF, no AES/EBU unfortunately.

[IDeangelis]

Hi Joe

if your question is about recording from H8000FW ADAT I/O, the answer is yes. The key is to use the proper routing to allow correct I/O connection. More info about how your gear is connected nad how you tried clocking the Eventide would help.

best

I 

[p9699]

Whew! Well at least I wasn't trying to do the impossible.

So here is my routing and system setting information:

Analog 1/2/3/4 input to Main inputs (no other inputs)

Opto in: ADAT; Opto out: ADAT;

DSP A: Analog 1/2/3/4 to IN 1/2/3/4; nothing to IN 5/6/7/8

DSP B: Analog 1/2/3/4 to IN 1/2/3/4; nothing to IN 5/6/7/8

Outputs: Main Analog: DSP A Out 1 + DSP B Out 1 = ANA1

Outputs: Main Analog: DSP A Out 2 + DSP B Out 2 = ANA2

Outputs: Main Analog: DSP A Out 1 + DSP B Out 1 = ANA3

Outputs: Main Analog: DSP A Out 2 + DSP B Out 2 = ANA4

Outputs: No DIG1 Outputs

Outputs: ADAT: Main Out 1 to Out 1

Outputs: ADAT: Main Out 2 to Out 2

Outputs: ADAT: Main Out 3 to Out 3

Outputs: ADAT: Main Out 4 to Out 4

Outputs: ADAT: Main Out 5 to Out 5

Outputs: ADAT: Main Out 6 to Out 6

Outputs: ADAT: Main Out 7 to Out 7

Outputs: ADAT: Main Out 8 to Out 8

Outputs: No AES Outputs

Outputs: No FIREWIRE1 Outputs

Outputs: No FIREWIRE2 Outputs

Clock: Source = ADAT; Source Rate = 48000; ADAT = OK

48 LED and EXT LED are lighted (not blinking, but on all the time)

I have a Gibson Echoplex loop plugged into the analog #1 jack. I can hear it on the PA system. The DIGI003/ProTools LE 7.4 system is connected to the H8000FW by Monster ADAT cables that show light at each end of their respective tunnels.

The hardware setup on ProTools is: Optical format = ADAT; Clock source = Internal; Sample Rate = 48000 kHz

I have a session open in ProTools with one audio track. The input for that audio track is set to what ProTools calls "optical channel 9/10".

When I enable recording on that track and press the "record" button, no signal shows in the meter.

I really don't know what to expect since this is first time I am attempting to record a digital signal.

Thank you for any help to can give; I know how difficult it is to troubleshoot remotely.

Joe

[IDeangelis]

 Joe

your routing is not set for ADAT! 

Try loading any odf the ADAT pre_made factory routings by pressing and holding the PROGRAM key. This will let you get into the routing area where you can load routing #12 or #19. This will make the difference. If you want to also use the Echoplex via analog input, you'll then need to modify the loaded routing to accomodate the analog input. The MAIN inputs and outputs are what really make the connection from/to the outside world.

all the best

I 

[p9699]

I did as you said; I set the route to #12. Then I set DSP A main input #1 to analog input 1. I set DSP B main input #1 to analog input 1. I set main analog outputs to DSP A + DSP B outs just so I could hear the loop.

I still don't get any signal on the Pro Tools track.

What should I be expecting to see on Pro Tools?

[IDeangelis]

 Well…. this depends on how you setup your pro tols session and rig. We can't possibly support this.

If your intention is to use the H8000 analog in to convert an analog signal to digital, then transfer it to ProTools via the H8000 ADAT outputs, this can be done with the  correct routing. Outside the H8000 things depend on how you set your other gear.

best

I 

[IDeangelis]

 There is no DSP A or B Main inputs. There are only the H8000 MAIN inputs and outputs.

Besides that, Routing #12 sets DSP A > DSP B, the two machines are in series. Any change should be done at DSP input stage as everything will then proceed to DSP B.

You are using ANALOG outputs in your Routing…BUT you want to get audio out of the ADAT. How can ProTools possibly get the signal from ADAT if your output is analog?

At this point I suggest you specify what exactly you want to do, describing the signal sources and route you want to achieve and how you want the 2 DSPs being connected between them.

best

I 

[p9699]

I apologize for using the wrong terminology; I will be more careful next time.

I set the analog output just to hear the signal, not to send it to Pro Tools. I planned to set off the analog output routing after I was successful at routing the ADAT output to the DIGI003/Pro Tools system.

Here is what I was trying to accomplish: 1) Input an analog signal to the H8000FW, 2) convert it to digital in the H8000FW through the use of the H8000FW programs, 3) output the digitial signal via ADAT to the DIGI003/Pro Tools system.

Prior to this experiment I used to feed an analog signal to the H8000FW and output an analog signal to the DIGI003/Pro Tools system. I assumed that the H8000FW automatically converts any analog signal to digital the moment it processes the analog signal through a program. I figured that there was an unnecessary DA/AD conversiion; a DA conversion done in the H8000FW to analog output, and an AD conversion done in the DIGI003/Pro Tools system to record the input.

[IDeangelis]

Hi Joe

FYI the H8000FW will convert an analog signal to digital without even needing to process it thru the DSPs. Infact the analog input can be directly routed to a digital output without passing thru a DSP/preset at all. Only the A(D converter will be used in this case.

For instance, if you take Routing #12 ADAT A-B (the one you loaded for our example) and :

-change  its MAIN INPUT #1 from ADAT in 1 to analog in 1

-go to the OUTPUTS menupage (MAIN Outputs (Analog) and change

dsp B out 1 (+) – – – – – – – – -> ANA1 

into

analog in 1 (+) – – – – – – – – – -> ANA1 

you'll hear what comes into analog input 1 right out of ADAT output 1. It works perfectly here. If you do not get the same result, there is something wrong in your ProTools configuration/session settings.

---

Now, back to your question…..

as I have described above, you can use the Eventide convert analog signals into digital. Different approaches may be about applying fx right after conversion, before entering ProTools…OR…..applying FX later, to the tracks previously recorded w/the Eventide as A/D converter. That's up to you and will require different routings options in your rig and on the H8000FW.

Be awrae that Routing #12 basic architecture is:

ADAT ins > DSP A >DSP B > ADAT outs

so the 2 DSPs are in series and B "post_process" A. You may want to prefer to set A and B in parallel for more processing power/options. Then you'll need to have DSP A inputs/outputs 1/2/3/4 running on ADAT I/O 1/2/3/4 and DSP B inputs 1/2/3/4 running on ADAT I/O 5/6/7/8…making the right adjustments in the routing area.

To do tests with DSPs, please load preset ?12 THRU in both. That'll help you to hear sound coming thru them, with the right routing selected/built.

Am I helping you?

best

I 

[p9699]

Italo, you are a great resource. I have used many of your posts to people's questions to learn about the H8000FW's capabilities and to resolve questions that I have had.

Yes you are helping me, but I do not know if I understand the underlying principles yet. Here is what I understand thus far: I can convert analog signals to digital within the H8000FW and transmit the digital signals via ADAT to the DIGI003/Pro Tools system for recording. My confusion at this point is why no signal appears on the Pro Tools track when I attempt to record the ADAT digital signal.

So here is my latest test: 1) I reloaded Route 12; 2) I changed MAIN INPUT #1 from ADAT in 1 to analog in 1; 3) that automatically changed DSP A IN1 to analog in 1; 4) I changed MAIN OUTPUTS (Analog) ANA1 to analog in 1; 5) I set both DSP programs to "THRU"; 6) No other changes were made.

I fed the Gibson Echoplex analog signal into the analog 1 input of the H8000FW and the H8000FW shows an input signal strength between -15 and -9. I set a Pro Tools track to ADAT input, enabled recording, but do not see any signal.

At this point, even though I cannot verify that ADAT signals are in fact reaching the DIGI003, I assume that everything is set up properly on the H8000FW and that I must have something set improperly in Pro Tools. One event that leads me this conclusion is that when I change the Pro Tools session sample rate from the 44.1 to 48, the H8000FW automatically adjusts to the new value. Do you agree that the H8000FW is probably set up properly?

Like MIDI or analog recording, I am expecting to see the signal strength bar on the Pro Tools track to dance when an ADAT signal is present. Also I expect to see something in the track recorded, whether it be little boxes for MIDI or waves for analog. Are my expectations proper?

Thank you for all of your help. I apologize for not being more concise.

Joe

[IDeangelis]

 Joe

don't apologize. Being concise with the H8000 doesn't help. That's the reason we ask for plenty of details.

 The Eventide has a setting to monitor OUTPUTS on the front panel LEDs. You can simply press LEVELS > METERS and set Source: outputs.

With the current routing you have just described, you can monitor if there's a singnal coming out of the ADAT output. You can even try another test by connecting analog in 1 to the second MAIN Output channel. In this way, when you switch Meters source to outputs, you'll see 2 lines of LEDS going on, while only one lits when meters are monitoring inputs. That will tell you everything is perfectly configured inside the H8000….then the problem is outside of it..

Simply go to SETUP> outputs and set

analog in 1 (+)

---

-> ANA 2  in the second line.

lemme know

I 

[p9699]

I performed the test as you suggested and sure enough the output levels appear on the LED for output channel 1 and 2. So at this point the H8000FW is configured properly, yes?

Like MIDI or analog recording, I am expecting to see the signal strength bar on the Pro Tools track to dance when an ADAT signal is present. Also I expect to see something in the track recorded, whether it be little boxes for MIDI or waves for analog. Are my expectations proper?

[IDeangelis]

Joe 

Yes, your H8000FW is perfectly configured to accept an analog signal, convert it to digital and send it out off the ADAT outputs.

Your expectation in ProTool is proper…but I have no idea why it's not working.

I suggest you start checking everything again, from the ADAT cable to everything in the settings/preferences/etc.

I 

[p9699]

Thank you for all of your help Italo. I feel that I have a better understanding of the digital domain in the H8000FW as a result.

Joe

[IDeangelis]

ANYTIME, Joe!

😉

I

[J20056]

I'm a ProTools user. I'm gonna ask basic questions, don't get offended, just trying to help, but are you correctly assigning the ADAT input to your ProTools track? Is your PT track an audio track or a Aux track? Could you check under SetupI/O and verify that ADAT is in fact there? In fact, have you *ever* succeeded at getting input signal from the ADAT pipe without the H8000 bur from a different ADAT source? Lastly, how is your "Input Only Monitoring" setup? Are you record-enabling the track to see whether there is signal coming through?

[IDeangelis]

 Hi Joe

you should post this type of questions in the pertinent place. I suggest you look for Pro Tools users forums as I'm sure there are many on the web.

thanks

I 

[p9699]

I agree Italo. I thought it was odd that the previous post from j20056 asking for Pro Tools information was allowed by your moderator; but since it was, I responded with the answers to his questions. I will look for a Pro Tools forum. Thanks for alll of your help Italo. Joe

[J20056]

You guys are so "religious". Anyways, Joe, good luck on the DUC (the obvious ProTools user's area).

[p9699]

Hello Italo,

Well I spent most of my time since our last email testing the DIGI003/H8000FW interface and posting my results on the Digidesign DUC forum. The DUC forum is not very helpful as Digidesign technicians don't regularly respond to questions as far as I can tell.

I would like to go over my test results with you and get your impression. Here is what I was able to prove: (By the way all of the initial tests were done with Route 12 and both DSPs set to THRU program.)

ADAT based clocking works with the DIGI003 as the master and H8000FW as a slave. ADAT based clocking does not work with the master/slave roles reversed; I get a message on the DIGI003 stating "Source clock is invalid. Reverting to internal".

S/PDIF based clocking works with either units set to master or slave respectively.

S/PDIF recording works on the DIGI003.

ADAT works when I send a previously recorded track from the DIGI003 to the H8000FW. But I don't get a signal when I try to send an ADAT stream to the DIGI003 for recording.

Both ADAT cables are OK as I swapped them and still get the same effect.

The only thing keeping me from unequivocally stating that there is nothing wrong with the H8000FW is that I can't prove beyond a doubt that data is actually being transmitted across the ADAT cable. I don't have any other ADAT devices and can't think of any tests that would prove it.

I was thinking that maybe I could ship my H8000FW back to Eventide for a diagnostic test. If the diagnostic tests prove the ADAT path is functioning properly, then I can so the same with the DIGI003 (send it to Digidesign for a diagnostic test).

What is your impression? Do you think this is an appropriate plan? Can you suggest any additional tests?

As always, I value your opinion and appreciate that Eventide provides an expert for their support forum. Digidesign could significantly reduce their customer frustration levels by following Eventide's example.

Joe

[IDeangelis]

 Hi Joe

I understand how frustrating this is getting…and it amazes me the ProTools folks don't help!

I suggest you try to test your units with another ADAT equipped device at your location, maybe a friend or a shop can help you?

Consider that shipping anything back if not broken and/or not covered by warranty will cost you money. Testing where you are makes much more sense to me as that's what I'd do right away.

You could also test your Pro Tools rig configuration and hardware by loading amn oscillator preset on the Eventide and feed PT via ADAT, using an ADAT routing. 

I 

[p9699]

Excellent suggestion Italo; I'll contact Guitar Center here and see if they can hook me up with an ADAT device. I am a very patient person (in my old age!) so I am not very frustrated at this point, perhaps because I am also learning so much about the H8000FW and the DIGI003/Pro Tools equipment in the process.

I will also try the oscillator test and report back.

Thank you Italo

[J20056]

There is a $300 gizmo that has 8 inputs (no pres though), then sends ADAT to a lightpipe. It's a cheap way to add 8 inputs to your 003 and you could check that ADAT works in the process. Forget who makes it, but just a suggestion you can google it I'm sure.

[J20056]

http://aes.harmony-central.com/Newp/WNAMM99/Alesis/AI3.html

It's Alesis, I think they still make it.

[p9699]

Hello Italo

I was not able to resolve this problem the last time we communicated, over a year ago. I decided to give it another try.

I was able to perform a significant test of the DIGI 003. A person on the Digi Support suggested that I use one light-pipe cable and connect it from the DIGI 003 in port to the DIGI 003 out port. I did this and was able to successfully feed a track out on ADAT channels 1-2 and record it onto another track using ADAT channels 1-2 as input. I did the same test with the other cable and was successful also.

I think this proves that the DIGI 003 is functioning properly and that the cables are OK.

I then went back to test with the H8000FW and set it up as follows:

I am using the ADAT A-B routing configuration; with no changes.

I am sending ADAT channels 1-2 to the H8000FW and see the H8000FW level meters move properly for input signals, machine in, machine out, and output.

But still no signals at the DIGI 003. What do you think?

[IDeangelis]

Hi Joe

I think that a real test is not looping back the DIGI 003 output to input. A good test would be to use a different unit feeding the DIGI…and another good test would be to feed the H8000 to another ADAT input equipped device.

Anyway, routing 12 uses ADAT I/Os and the 2 dsps are in series. Load preset 11 MUTE in DSP A, then load preset 13 OSCILLATOR in DSP B. The aim here is to check that an H8000 generated signal is going out thru adat. You can monitor signal I/O w/the front panel LEDs, changing their feed source under LEVELS > METER, as you already know.

At this point, if you don't get any signal on your DIGI, I can only think of the folowing:

-TEST should be done with more ADAT cables, to make sure it's not a cable fault.

-Connecting the H8000 to another ADAT device and still not getting any oscillator sound out of it may indicate a problem on the ADAT output, even though the LEDs may correctly work. Can't diagnose this in any other way from here.

-DIGI and DAW I/O configuration may not be correct. This is just my speculation here. I'm trying to think of all possible causes of the problem. Would be VERY usefu to connect another DAT device to your DIGI and check if you get sound with the configuration you have setup.

Simply with these tests you can solve the problem in minutes; why one year has gone?

best
I

[p9699]

Hello Italo, I don't have any other ADAT devices and I cannot locate any companies locally that rent something like an Alesis HD24 unit. At any rate it may be cheaper for me to ship my H8000FW to Eventide and have them perform a test. Any suggestions on other ADAT capable devices to use?

[p9699]

Hello Italo, I did the oscillator test as you suggested and got the same results. There is a generated sound coming out of the analog speakers, but no signal on the DIGI 003. Also the H8000FW meter shows no signal for the input and machine in blocks, but does show signals for the machine out and output blocks. I will get some new cables this evening and re-test and let you know. Thanks for all of your help. You are invaluable.

[p9699]

Hello Italo, I plan to take the H8000FW into an electronic repair place tomorrow to have them test the ADAT ports. I'll let you know what they say.

[IDeangelis]

 Hi Joe

the input leds should not light up as the oscillator is an internal sound generator. There is no sound coming in the unit. It's the unit itself generating the sound…so only the output level will be monitored by leds, as you found out already.

best

I

[p9699]

I thought I would try a loop-back test before I took the unit in. Using just one ADAT cable connecting the H8000FW in and out ADAT ports, I was going to set the oscillator to output a signal on just ADAT channel 1 and then set up the routing to bring that signal back in on ADAT channel 1, but let it die there. I should be able to see the input level for channel 1 light up, right?

[IDeangelis]

 I havenever tried that, Joe.

You may try….

I

[p9699]

Here is how I setup the loop-back test:

1) Loaded ADAT A-B routing configuration

2) Set Program A to Mute

3) Set clock source to internal 48 kHz

4) Set all Main Inputs to

---

, then set set Main Inputs IN 1 to ADAT in 1

5) Set all DSP A i/p routing to

---

6) Set all DSP B i/p routing to

---

7) Set all Main Outputs (Analog) to

---

, then set Main Outputs (Analog) ANA1 to DSP B out 1 +

---

(so I could hear the signal)

8) Set all Main Outputs (Digital) to

---

9) Set all ADAT Outputs to

---

, then set ADAT Outputs out1 to Main Out 1

10) Set all AES Outputs to

---

11) Set all Firewire 1 Outputs to

---

12) Set all Firewire 2 Outputs to

---

13) Plugged one lightpipe TOSLink cable from the Out port to the In port

14) Powered the H8000FW off, then on

15) Set Program B to Oscillator

Result: A signal shows up on all 8 channels of the Main Output block, and on channel 1 of the Output block, but no signal shows up on the Input block (I don't expect one to show up on the Main input block due to the way I have routed the signals.)

Do you think this is a valid test to determine if there is a hardware failure in the ADAT Out port?

[IDeangelis]

I don't think it's a valid test as looping back digital signal on its own clock can cause strange behaviour. I did on mine and no leds go on…and ADAT is working fine.

You need 2 ADAT units to be sure the test is ok.

best

I

[p9699]

Hello Italo, I am sorry to take so long to respond. I had planned to take the H8000FW into my local music shop for a test, but decided to do one more test with both cables. Well, one cable quite a bit of static. So I ordered a new cable online and it finally came today!

So I installed the new cable and walla!  Everything worked!  Sorry to spend so much time on something as simple as a failed cable, but I just didn't think that a $60 cable (I buy the best) would be bad out of the box. One side benefit of the whole discussion that we have been having is that I understand S/PDIF, ADAT, routings, clocking, and many other aspects of recording much more thoroughly, and for that I cannot thank you enough. 

I sure hope Eventide realizes what a patient, in-control, and knowledgeable asset they have in you. It is rare to get this level of support regardless of the product cost.

Thanks again for all of your help,

Joe

[p9699]

Italo, I'm sorry but I did the wrong test. I tested the ADAT input port, but forgot that it always worked. It's the ADAT output port that was not working. I tried the new cables but it is still not outputting any signal. At this point, unless you suggest otherwise, I plan to pack the unit off to Eventide for diagnostic testing.

I still meant all of those things that I said about you.

Joe

[Mike]

If you are referring to the RMS Digiface, just make sure the ADAT cables from the H8000FW go into I/O #2 on the Digi. I had hell with this. !/O # 1 seems to have some sort of proprietary master sync that or I was more mixed up than usual on where my faders were.

[Mike]

Sorry I just went down the thread and you are talking about Pro Tools, but nonetheless they may have some similar ADAT priority scheme to RME.

I used to obsess about unnecessary AD/DA conversions, until I got some good analog gear. You will find that the best mastering labs actually do an extra AD/DA conversion in order get a better less digital sound.

Run those old synths with cheap converters through certain high end analog gear and you will be blown away. If you like metal just the Great River pre-amp is a good start and complements Eventide's gear well. 

IMHO avoid UA gear. Their plug-ins sound better than their hardware. I don't think that their plug-ins work with Pro-Tools and anyway don't hardly overlap with Eventide's.

[p9699]

Hello Mike,

Interesting proposition; I'll try it!

Thanks,

Joe

[p9699]

Hello Italo,

I just came back from the music store where they plugged the H8000FW into a DIGI003. I set up an ossillator and input it to the Digi. All that we heard was static, as if the volumes were up WAY to loud; it was just solid distortion. We swapped the ADAT cables out; same thing. So I am going to make arrangements to ship the unit back to Eventide for repair. I'll wait a couple of days to see if you come up with anything. Thanks for all of your help.

Joe 

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